As more American #Walkaway from the Democrats, they need to import new voters.

USA first!

you realize that the $4bn in "aid" is spent on US defense tech? (74% prior to the most recent package; now its 100%) so what you're saying is that you'd rather have a wall instead of our defense contractors getting billions of dollars of incentives to invest in R&D that the US eventually uses to defend itself?

its. as. if. context. is. more. complex. than. you. can. comprehend.

WALLS ARE DEFENSE

its. as. if. context. is. more. complex. than. you. can. comprehend.

Sounds like corporate welfare or socialism.

MURICA!!!!

not sure how this is socialism, but definitely a type of corporate welfare. its an end-around for these united states to simultaneously help an ally in a contested region of the world and boost their own economy while improving our military defense industry.

ok, but dont think schumer, fiensten will vote yes

or ANY republican.

there are 38 dem reps with Israeli/usa citizenship , 2 ind and 1 gop

no the usa citizens vote 4 the reps. we the ppl can vote them out

But the GOP can do it NOW if they wanted to.

HINT: they don't want to.

you dont understand or u replied to the wrong thread, I said there are 38 dem reps with dual citizenship, 2 ind and 1 gop, you replied with a meme saying "gop can vote them out" They cant. The people vote the reps in.U know citizens, u me etc

OUTVOTE THEM and VOTE THEM OUT are 2 totally different concepts. Do you know how congress works?

Gun control will work as its supporters intend. It will keep guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens that support the constitution and are willing to fight for their freedoms.

The wall will work as it's supporters intend. It will keep illegal immigrants from entering the country, stop the vast majority of human trafficking, and stop the vast majority of illegal drugs from entering the country.

Too bad your version of the argument sucks.

So what if someone can dig a tunnel? They dig tunnels now. The difference a wall makes is it makes it much harder to walk in. I'm not sure where the confusion is.

I love the leftist argument that a wall is a waste because they will dig under it. It’s like saying locks on your doors are a waste because burglars will break a window.

Great point, MnMinPhx!

Nobody is claiming they are totally secure.

Maybe you should look at the amount of open border and reevaluate your opinions.

Maybe you should look at sonic detector technology and reevaluate your opinions

That's very problematic. Tunnels aren't just built especially in the border regions. It's extremely expensive just to make a bore large enough to transport people through. Reenforcing it to prevent collapse is even more expensive, even if you're using cheap labor. Who's going to pay for all these tunnels? Those who pass over the border now do so relatively cheap. A guy that I used to work with would go back and sneak back across every two years...no problem. That's the case for most who cross. If they have to start paying drug lords to take them through, I'm positive the crossings will be too cost prohibitive. Besides, no drug lords is going to compromise a multi million dollar operation for the sake of a few migrants who can't afford to pay the ticket.

Sonic detectors are so sensitive they can hear a mouse fart. As soon as a tunnel starts the Border Patrol will be on top of it, doing what they get paid to do.

The wall Trump wants is not a static object. It will be state of the art. Nothing will get near it without BP headquarters knowing where and when. It will make patrolling the border a precise operation instead of the blind wandering that it is now.

But what if one of Grind's pocket nukes that Obama sent McCain to deliver to Iran to kill Russia goes off in the Mexican province of Honduras forcing a lethal caravan of 40 million non-northwest Europeans to escape through Jeb Beaner's farm in Puebla de los Mexicanos, Texas so they can get free door prizes from Pelosi and Chuck 'DACA, what was that again' Schumer?

The things we can learn from Q Anon's illustrious messenger, Grind.

I'm going along with your fantasies on that one.

Oh, McCain didn't deliver a pocket nuke. McCain delivered Uranium to Syria so they could lease a Nuclear weapons facility to Iran.

Obama was the one that authorized the delivery of the Pocket Nukes to the rebels and then sold out their location to ISIL so they could acquire them.

Get it right already.

Priceless

Clowns...

Tunnels only work in populated areas with buildings on both sides of the border so the entrances can be hidden. It would be easy to detect a tunnel being dug out in the middle of nowhere long before it was completed.

Gun control hasn't ended the high incidences of knife sprees and attacks by home-made bombs in pro gun-control countries like England. So no, that argument is invalid if one is talking about ending social violence.

He never brought up knifes or bombings...we are solely talking about guns here

So murder and violence aren't an issue if a gun isn't used?
Got it.

And here I thought we were talking about if something worked or not. Hmm

Israel's situation is not the same as the situation in the U.S. And there's more than a wall there, and that wall is rather built as an act of war, as a kind of provocation than as a kind of defense. And it was not really migration the Israeli feared, but all out attacks, and when we see how safe the region is, I have my doubts how well the wall works. And everybody knows that destroying that wall will very likely be one of the best gestures Israel can do to the Palestinians if they really want peace. Of course, on the Palestinian side there will also need to be change of attitude, but when speaking of the wall alone, that was not the Palestinian idea.

And somebody desperate to cross a border will find a way, even if it kills them. A sea can be far more of a barrier to cross than a wall, and when I see how many people get themselves killed on the sea trying to reach Europe, exploited by human smugglers. Yeah, those smugglers will love that U.S. wall. The bigger the obstacles the more money they can make. As long as the migrants have a reason to go somewhere, they will.

"Israel's situation is not the same as the situation in the U.S. And there's more than a wall there, and that wall is rather built as an act of war, as a kind of provocation than as a kind of defense. And it was not really migration the Israeli feared, but all out attacks, and when we see how safe the region is, I have my doubts how well the wall works. And everybody knows that destroying that wall will very likely be one of the best gestures Israel can do to the Palestinians if they really want peace. Of course, on the Palestinian side there will also need to be change of attitude, but when speaking of the wall alone, that was not the Palestinian idea."

No one but anti semites believe this nonsense. The Jews have every right to protect their land without everyone calling their border wall a "hate symbol," or an "act of war."

You do realize there is no Palestinian state, right?

I despite discrimination of all kinds, and I do not believe anything, I simply made a conclusion based on facts. Just because the Jews happen to be killed in large numbers during WWII does not make them saints or anything and thus they are not above human rights treaties. When it comes to a Palestinian state all I can say the area basically functions as one, even though nobody has ever officially recognized it as such.

I'd be the last to justify the actions of Hamas, but there is also a limit in how far Israel can go. Hamas deems the wall as proof that the Israelis don't recognize the Palestinians rights, and they do have a point. In the end both parties in that conflict are at the present time equally guilty as far as my information flow goes.

BTW I've had many Jews in my social network. I judge people by their deeds and not by the people they belong to. The same I do with states, and Israel is no exception. As long as you deem my previous statement as antisemitic it's clear you have no understanding of how things are and how I drew my conclusions. But it's clear you have a "who isn't for us is against us" point of view, and as long as that point of view exists we'll never have world peace. That is something I've learned over the years.

That wall was not a solution, and as long as it's there, it will keep the conflict going. I am also pretty sure that if peace negotiations will ever come at all, tearing down that wall will be hard point in those negotiations.

But I've now seen why peace for Israel is impossible. Because there are people with your kids of view. If you can make harsh statements, I can do the same.

If you think Jews as a whole have only been the punching bag during WWII, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. All throughout human history Jews have been targeted and slaughtered. WWII was just a massive slaughter in a short period of time not so long ago. Which is why everyone brings it up. Israelis have every right to defend themselves and their land; and it is THEIR land. They bought it fair and square.

There have never been a group of people so hated as much as the Jewish people. There has been hate toward every race and creed throughout history, but nothing as long as and as much as these people.

Being hated doesn't give you more rights than others, and I have never denied the claim on Israel wasn't legal or just or whatever. You make things up as you are determined to deem me an antisemitic, and you even bring in points that are not even relevant to this discussion.

I hate nothing more but hate solely based on which group you belong to, but abusing being hated, is also inexcusable and that is exactly what Netanyahu's doing. A nice political stunt and see how many people fell for it, and yeah I think that's despicable. And basically the same stunt was a bit used by Hitler when the Germans got all the blame for WWI, and people all voted for him, and the rest is an awful history.

Frankly I don't care if Israel exists or doesn't exist or to whom the land belongs. My only desire is that people do not care about which group of people they belong to, and that peace can exist. That wall is not helping there, that is a proven fact. It only increased the tension between the two battling groups.

I am on nobody's side. As far as I can judge both Palestinians and the Israelis should recognize the legal and human rights of the other party. Yitzhak Rabin understood this when he tried to come to a peace agreement, but he was killed by his own people for his belief in peace and after that all the trouble that ultimately led to this wall began. I can only hope a new Rabin will someday come and that he will succeed without getting killed.

Yeah I know Jews have always been in conflict with others, and I also know that even the Bible tells about the conflict that still goes on in Israel. I don't care about right or wrong though. A 5000 years old conflict is not easily solved, however since WWII in which a genocide was attempted on the Jews, it appears that any form of critic towards people who appear to be Jewish is antisemitic, which is just as pathetic is deeming the word "black" racist (regardless of the context in which it's used).

In the end Jews are humans just like everybody else. No matter how hated they are, and no matter how much right they have to Israel as their land, they too can make mistakes, including huge political mistakes. Face it!

Yes, parts of it. But that doesn't really change it. Bought it, given it....it's their land to defend who they wish to. Especially from a group of people who want the entire Jewish people to be wiped off the face of the planet.

Technically ? Try 100%.. The day they moved in the same countries that surround them and want them wiped from the map actually ATTACKED them.. right after WWII.. There were 12 million jews before WWII, and there were 6 million left in the world after it. The Jewish people are just now crossing back over pre WWII levels. Hitler almost succeeded. Do you know how many Muslims exist in the world ? 1.8 Billion. If only 10% want them gone that's still a 15-1 ratio.. But I can see how Israel might still be considered the aggressor.. Funny also whenever Israel agrees to a cease fire.. the other side NEVER holds to it.. If you don't sympathize with Israel, you really just don't understand the problem very well.

Like saying technically the United States belongs to us. There's no ifs ands or buts, and it's not even a debate. Great Britain and The US made a pact to not only find the remaining Jews a place to live but to forever make sure that their existence doesn't disappear from the planet. The more you lessen the idea of what happened to the Jews in WWII, the more it's likely to happen again. Hitler almost succeeded in wiping an entire race of people off the earth. Despite the level of that atrocity, there are several countries who still endorse it. We all know you're a hard core lefty, but try to educate yourself on this a little better and not buy into the left's anti-Jewish slant. It's shouldn't be a left/right issue, it's a human one.

Sorry pal, your hypocritical double standards are just that.

What was done to anyone does not justify them doing the same to others, and that includes unto their S-E-M-I-T-I-C BRETHREN who remained in Palestina while those who now call it theirs stayed away getting diluted by Europeans for nearly 2000 years.

Invading land, occupying it when people fled getting bombed during war and refusing the right of return, using bogus zoning regulations and emminent domain, etc, to take it away from its occupants is not exactly how the real estate market functions, except, of course, for folks - or should I say, volks - who do as they learned form the WWII that fostered the birth of Israel in the first place.

And if you think they hold the exclusive rights to having been maligned and persecuted, you haven't been paying attention to history nor your own racist rants against tu gente, primo. Or did you forget this wall thingy and why you yearn for it? You don't remember the Alamo?

All walls are defensive, there is no way a wall can be a provocation or an offensive action of war. Please tell me how a wall can be considered an offensive action in a conflict?

Perhaps you only deep shooting as an attack. Thanks to this wall many Palestinians who had a job on areas on the other side of the wall have trouble getting to work, for starters, and that is just the tip of the iceberg. There are more ways to attack people than by shooting them or punching them. Economy isn't that well in Gaza, and the Palestinians feel like Israel locked them up, forcing them to surrender one day, that is the basic idea, as the true situation is more complex than that.
This is by the way one of the oldest tricks in the box in war. The Berlin wall built for similar reasons. An attempt to cut West-Berlin from West-Europe, as the Soviets wanted Berlin as a whole and not only the East. And also without walls the same trick applies by surrounding settlements so nobody can leave them in order to make food shortage the weapon to strike with.

So if you believe there's no way a wall can serve as an action of offense, it's clear you are in need of history lessons and war tactical lessons, as this trick is actually as old as war itself.

It is their boundary of their own country, they can do what they want. It'd be like your neighbor saying you can't put up a timber fence that you are paying for in full that is on your side of the property line. It is their country to protect as they see fit with any passive defenses they deem necessary.

It's typical how people believe you can compare a nation with private property. Nobody suffers when you build a wall around your house. When it comes to to this particular wall there is more involved, as you cannot just isolate people. Which is by the way in private property also forbidden. If I build a wall around my house causing my neighbor to get into a position that he cannot enter or leave his house the judge will demand me to tear it down, as private property or not, you may not blockout other people from theirs or lock them up in it, and the latter is what this wall is technically doing, and also the reason why so many countries condemn it.

And you just showed why this wall is a problem. The Israeli government makes the same claim as you do, and although everyone who is well-versed in dirty war strategy knows better, it's hard to claim this in international court which Israel does not even recognize, making things even harder.

Maybe Israel is lucky Egypt is keeping their borders closed (as I guess they do not want to burn their hands on that one) or getting past that wall would be even more easy, I guess...

There are more ways to win a war. It's not only about violence and "defend against violence". And I have the story you hold about that war before, but I guess when I bring that one up all hell breaks loose, so I won't, except for that a giant barrier drove many people to starve to death, and yet this was not murder. So if I build a wall around a person so he can't get out and starve to death, it's not murder, but I just defended myself? Not sure if the judge will agree on that one, but according to your theory that's the way it is.... Good to know...

As your house is yours and you can protect it as you see fit, that land is their home and they can protect it as they see fit. As EVERY country recognizes they own sovereignty, and protects it.

You know talking to you is about as interesting as talking to a rock. You react to a post you didn't even read, so what was the point in responding? A country is nobody's property and a house cannot be compared to a country, and even with a house there are limits in how far you can go to protect it.

But like I said, it's clear now why the war between Israel and the Palestinians can never end. As long as people refuse to see that Israel has lost sight of what protection and aggression is (and many people being to blind to see that) the war will move on. Of course there's a lot to say about the Palestinian side of this conflict, sure... The Palestinians did also do inexcusable things, but that wall was only what we call "throwing oil on the fire"... Especially since the Palestinians have two areas, but they cannot travel from one to the other (officially) due to Israel being in between them, with that wall. The right of passage I mentioned earlier has been violated that way. The Palestinians feel like being trapped (since the sea and airspace around their area is heavily protected by the Israeli army). And yeah trapping like that is the oldest trick in the box, I said it before.

Protecting your country seems cool, and Israel is said to be the most "stable" country in the region, and that's why the world doesn't act upon Israel's actions,while they do condemn it, as they know Israel goes too far in their urge to protect themselves, and the wall is part of all that. Some people say that the border marked by that wall has been altered in Israel's own benefit, which would be the same as when I build a wall in YOUR garden to "protect my house".

Some research I did (I do check my facts) confirmed some Palestinians have been cut off from lands that is their private property (without compensation), some children cannot go to school, and that a lot of Palestinians have been denied medical care, all thanks to the barriers Israel set up. You do know that all those things are violations of human rights, don't you? And you can still claim that wall is only "protection"? I guess you can, since you didn't read my previous post I cannot expect you'll read this one, but at least I can expose you as somebody who refuses to read by typing all this.

I guess we can agree to disagree.
But something else we agree on, and I'll quote you...
"... talking to you is about as interesting as talking to a rock.*

Then at least I see you have a good image on yourself that you agree with me on that one.

You got your views, and they aren't going to change.
Or, as interesting as talking to a rock.

They can change ^_^
But I wanna see some movement from Israel before they change, at the present state of things, I'm afraid.

You got 5 upvotes simply for being too dim to comprehend what he posted?

"Thanks to this wall many Palestinians who had a job on areas on the other side of the wall have trouble getting to work, for starters, and that is just the tip of the iceberg."

man, its as if the terrorists who were attacking israel with suicide bombs, kidnappings, car rammings, knife attacks, etc. aren't the ones to blame and israel was obligated to continue to allow the terrorists into their boundaries so that other palestinians could continue to work.

maybe, just maybe, israel considered the economic affects of the loss of labor and decided that the security of their citizens was more important.

Sure, keep your eyes shut for the reality the way it is.
Humanity paid the price for that countless time before, but the generation who did has (almost) died out, so i guess the price needs to be paid again.
Self-defense does not justify the violation of human rights.
I wonder when Israel got in real danger. Perhaps the their they fear became a true threat because some people are (rightfully) angry about that wall. The less perspective people have the more willing they are to join a terrorist course. Thanks to the wall, nobody in Gaza doesn't have a reason anymore to become a terrorist. Israel practically handed it to them. And now that they can rocket attacks all the time they yell "see world, they are a threat!" Oldest trick in the box... If you wanna be the victim, just give your enemies a reason to become more dangerous than they already are.

It's not that I like Hamas' attitude. But one thing I know about terrorist organizations is that if you put the population they belong to all in potential terrorists, then they can show how bad the enemy is, and recruiting will be far too easy. That's basically also the same attitude terrorist organizations threatening Europe and the U.S. manage to win their recruits with.

But I see where you're going. It only takes one terrorist and all people of the same population are.

Really I know Israel has many enemies, but isolating people from the rest of the world (and that is what this particular wall does) is not the way to defend yourself.

There's always a price to pay "for the greater good"... The wall is the symbol if human madness, not of defense. You have no idea what it is to be cut of from labor, education, medical care and more stuff like that. And further research I did on this topic is about the Palenstians being allowed to pass the wall is that nobody really knows who may pass and who may not, since the reasoning Israel gives up is far from transparent... Actually quite often no reason at all is given to reject the request for right of passage. What do they have to hide?

I said it before and I said it again, the Palestinians did things that are inexcusable, but Israel is no better and Israel also has a strange idea of "defense" in general (like building settlements in areas that are not supposed to be theirs... Strange "defense"). War is not a matter of "we are good and they are bad". Both parties shall have to give in. The wall only made matters worse.