I don't understand why Democrats are opposed to the wall they once wholeheartedly supported.

Mexico will pay for it..
Believe me.

200 billion pesos is around 10 billion dollars.
Trump just pandering to his base.

pandering? i was thinkin bait and switch

Where those numbers come from?

Several places. The $115 comes from here.

https://www.fairus.org/issue/publications-resources/fiscal-burden-illegal-immigration-united-states-taxpayers

The $300 billion number comes from the Congressional Budget Ofice here

https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/110th-congress-2007-2008/reports/12-6-immigration.pdf

However, there is some dispute as to how to count the actual cost, which is why I put in a range.

In either case, the cost of the wall is small compared to the annual cost no matter which numbers you use.

Now, of course, the wall would not stop all illegals. There are many who just overstay their visas, etc. However, it would help reduce the overall number at a fraction of what taxpayers spend supporting them.

Thanks. Enforce the laws already on the books and you might just find out the wall isn't needed.
Won't cost much to test this theory and can be tried immediately while the fight for funding is ongoing.

Wrong. The border wall isn't even just about immigrants. It's primarily about illegal trafficking of drugs and people.

Ever seen how much of our border is walled off? Check and tell me that you believe law enforcement is the solution.

The problem is, the liberals are fighting to not enforce the laws. They won't let ICE deport people immediately who enter the country illegally, they won't let ICE detain them till they are deported, (catch and release), etc.

The biggest problem is that once they cross the border, even if caught, it takes months and even years to deport them. Meanwhile, the taxpayers are supporting them. Then they start having babies which complicates the matter even more.

Hand them hankies and have them enforce the law already.

Both parties are responsible.
Instead of placing blame work toward a solution.
I could say it is the republicans that don't want to lose that cheap labor force.

That doesn't make sense.

If the Republicans want a cheap labor force why is it only the Democrats fighting the wall, calling for the abolishment of ICE, and suing Trump over every action to enforce the laws?

EVERYONE wants a cheap labor force. Ask the mirror when you stop your SUV to hire some at the Home Depot parking lot.

Or do you really require a signed permission slip to boycott them?

Why are you dehumanizing immigrants?

Because you parasites should all be kicked out.

Hire American.

Go home and hire your own.

The money is better spent than on a wall.
We ain't getting anywhere if all you want to do is place blame.
I believe the wall isn't necessary.
Maybe this will help you visualize my thinking.... We should build a vast impenetrable wall along our border. The Canadian border. You see how ridiculous that sounds?

And we belive the wall IS necessary. Does your opinion outweigh ours?

No but the majority of people are on my side of this argument.

Sure they are, bud.

if you come out of your echo chamber and look at some data. you will see

Damn, you can't read, either. The polls said trump would BE steamrolled, not that he was going to steamroll.

And that is why the popular vote was as close as it was. Why can't you see that. Clinton voters stayed away from the voting booth BECAUSE the POLLS told them there is no way Trump would win. So if you are glad Trump won the election you have the POLLS to thank for that outcome

The same data that said you guys would steamroll Trump in 2016? Sorry but your media polls have been wrong so many times it's actually hilarious you still believe them

That's the best we can do. Poll across the spectrum. Is it always right? But the polls actually helped Trump get elected because those voted against Trump said it wasn't necessary to vote because there is no way he is getting elected. So if you are glad Trump got elected thank the polls.
So you can look at poll data or just stay in your bubble, the choice is yours of course

also the steamroll was EC not popular. Ranked choice voting system is coming and will break the 2 party stranglehold. Might not be soon but it is coming.

Also the wall polls are more believable. Why? because there is no EC throwing a curveball. But you are more than welcome to stay in your bubble.

You say the EC was a curveball, yet clinton only won the popular vote by less than 1% of the US population. Even in terms of popular vote, the polls weren't even CLOSE to accurate. But please, keep thinking to yourself that 3 million is a substantial number in a country of 350+ million. It's not intellectually dishonest at all.

Just stay in your bubble please. We don't need your type out in the wild. LOL

Your accusations of me being in a bubble while you consistently deny even simple FACTS such as HRC winning the popular vote by less than 1% is absolutely amazing.

Did Trump win with a steamroll of the popular vote? Your word "steamroll".
Of course not he not only didn't steamroll he didn't win at all. Please SMH

Your logic is economically unsound.

Spending $10 billion of taxpayer money once, to minimize people illegally entering the country is far better than spending $115 - $300 billion of taxpayer money every year to support them.

As far a Canadian wall, if there was a problem along that border then yes, that too.

You are correct. IF your numbers were correct. They are not indisputable right? Otherwise why the fight?
I maintain for the most ardent of wall supporters is based on race mostly. Imo
Put the Mexicans in Canada and the Canadians in Mexico and then they would only want a Canadian border wall. Racism exists

Okay, but I'm not sure I see the connection between Trump not building the wall yet, and Canadians and Mexicans switching geographic locations. In fact, if that were to happen, but the countries' economic situations stayed the same, Trump would probably still build the southern wall, to keep the now impoverished Canadians out. And Mexico might build their own southern wall again, just like they did in Mexico, only this time to keep Americans out.

Walls are a time-honored tradition when it comes to protecting borders. Trump just took lessons from the Chinese and Mexicans.

And the romans, and the french..

We agree the reason for migration is to better one's life. But what if we enforce the laws against employing illegals. No jobs available. No economic bettering available. Might as well stay home then.

"But what if we enforce the laws against employing illegals"

That should indeed be an additional tactic in combating the problem, but who do you think actually employs the most illegals?

Agriculture.
Packing plants. Are probably the biggest employers.
Let's s end citizenship just for being born in the USA.

Right, because Canada and Mexico are absolutely identical countries, with the only difference being the skin color of the citizens...

Do you not realize how ridiculous that argument sounded?

Of course its ridiculous. Of course racist will deny their motives. Everything the wall is supposed to fix can be fixed by other cheaper means

Well I can't say for sure, but I'm given to understand that the most illegals are actually hired by liberals. Not hard to believe, given how so many of them wind up in California.

They are hired by those who are capable of employing them. I. E. Rich folks. And rich companies. They hire them because they know the penalties are so weak they take the chance of getting caught.
But it doesn't matter who is employing them. Make the fines and penalties so severe that any sane person realizes it isnt worth getting caught. Big part of the problem solved. No wall needed. No maintenance on said wall needed.

Again, your last reply has no argument against it. It should be built. The Democrats are just playing politics and don't care about the country only gaining power. They are unpatriotic and should be voted out.

You are truly indoctrinated. Good luck with your life. Still not getting built and all the democrats are not getting votd out. Silly silly silly. You are truly stupid if you think a single party in charge of everything is good for our country

I'm indoctrinated?
You're the one with no logical argument against a wall it, saying the wall will not be built. The wall makes sense from an economic, safety, and national interest standpoint, but I am indoctrinated. Grow up and start thinking for yourself.

You are indoctrinated if you think one party has all the answers. You voted straight ticket didn't you?
I have given reasons the wall isn't needed and those monies better spent elsewhere. You just choose to ignore that though.
Anybody who votes straight ticket is an idiot regardless of party.
And the wall isn't getting built lol

I didn't comment on anything else, I just wanted to see if you would admit that particular argument of yours was decidedly stupid. Thank you for doing so.

You sometimes have to make absurd statements to make others realize their absurd statements. The wall isn't going to be built. I remember some Trump supporters claiming it would be built before the next election. Hahahaa

You are insane. No one is calling for a Canadian wall, because they are not coming here illegally, bringing crime with them and stealing services. If you don't understand that and say it's racism, it only proves that you are the one who actually is racist.

You aren't reading the thread thoroughly and jump to conclusions. So there's that.

Your last reply seems more like a petulant child having a tantrum and saying no. You have made no logical argument for not having a wall so you just whine and stamp your feet.

It isn't getting built.
Sorry you so want it but it isn't gonna happen.
You are acting like Trump himself.

I am only reported numbers that are readily available, which accounts for the large range.

It has nothing to do with race, only where the problem is. I really don't see an abundance of Canadians illegally entering the country. If there were 45,000 - 70,000 per month illegally entering from Canada, I am sure we would want a wall there.

The wall isn't happening. Get over it.

Remember the case of the 2 border patrols that got 10 years in jail for shooting an illegal drug dealer that refused arrest in the butt? The book does not work :/

Works better than a wall

please elaborate.

I have multiple times. If you think a wall is the only or even the best solution to our problems you just aren't trying very hard.

no, the wall is not the best solution. it is a patch up that could work. Maybe if the corrupted governments(from those countries the illegals come from) see that we are not going to help them with their population problem by making it harder for them to cross over, then maybe they will get off their asses and do something about it. That is the purpose of the wall. Now the true solution is everyone going to those countries, removing the corrupted government, then helping those people at their country, and it will take everyone's effort. That way those people can enjoy the riches of their country and live a dignified life. However, I do not see you getting off your ass to help out anyone and neither am I for that matter, hence we are here, so I think then the wall comes as a good choice then.

We don't want to help them as a society. We want to profit off their low wages and living standard. Wall not needed. Wall not going to be built.

It is not racist at all, look at the definition of racism, it does not fit at all with the purpose of the wall. It is about security keeping people that try to enter the country illegally. You are wrong on this one. Each country has their duty to their citizens to protect them against illegal migration, in some countries they even kill them, and some countries illegals have no hope of becoming residents. Blaming it on racism is what an uneducated person will respond with out of lack of knowledge or context to provide a proper argument or contribution to the conversation.

The wall isn't going to get built. F*gedaboutit

funny you mention that, because the people who are protesting against the wall are the candidates who most likely will have their job replaced by illegal immigrants. Lovely :D

The wall is a fantasy mostly racists

No the best solution would be to mine the border and patrolled with hellfire armed drones.

Fine by me. Better and cheaper than a wall. Just because I don't want a wall,which the majority of Americans do not want, doesn't mean I am for illegals. If you were in their situation you would be doing the exact same thing, trying to better your life.

I most certainly would not be trying to cross one of the most scrutinized borders in the world. I'd figure out something way less stupid.

Let me clarify, the US-Mexican border is the biggest thing in news when it comes to borders. Everything about it is examined under a microscope.

You may now apologize for having zero comprehension of the issues of today's borders.

So says the unabashed moron who got his solution for border security from his gaming console.

Most scrutinized border in the world. Yet we need a wall. You do realize how stupid that sounds don't you?

The $300 billion CBO figure is over a decade old.

It is contradicted by the $115 bilion figure you yourself supplied, which is an estimate that includes ALL foreign born - illegal and illegal - and their children, and maximizes (overinflates?) the estimated services they might possibly use.

It doesn't figure in the contributions those children will make as adults in economic activity and in paying taxes.
Nor does it figure in the effect on the economy and tax revenue should you remove 10 million (of it's hardest working, no less) people from it.

The only walls needed are around the prisons that those who break the law by employing them should be thrown in.

Speaking of which: Ever wonder why Trump himself is so eager to lock them (and everyone else) up? Turns out he supports the privitization of the prison system. The more people behind bars, the more prisons needed - see where this is going? - and thus the more money there is to be had by those owning and, yup, building them.

Welcome to The Fart Of The Deal.