Philosoraptor

That has such meaning. Are you an ancient philosopher forwarded to the future?

I like that, I will have to remember that one!

We live in a world of cause and effect, and of logical consistency. As such, we cannot act however we want and expect to escape the results. You are free to make whatever choices you want, but you are not free to choose what the results of your choices will be.

You'd rather live under Loki's rule? "Is not this simpler? Is this not your natural state? It's the unspoken truth of humanity, that you crave subjugation. The bright lure of freedom diminishes your life's joy in a mad scramble for power, for identity. You were made to be ruled. In the end, you will always kneel."

It goes with the territory

Rush <3 <3 !!!

Many a man is saved from being a Thief by finding all the doors locked... what good is it to make the 'right' choice if you don't have the option to make the wrong one?

The point of free will is so you can choose or reject God. God doesn't want robots that say they love him because they are told to do so.

Yes. I always explain it as the choice between doing good and doing evil, and that you cannot control what others choose.

"Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy. And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given. Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself."
--2nd Nephi 2:25-27

Not canon, but still mostly true

Actually, it IS canon, and 100% true.

Not 100% true, because it holds the fall of man in a positive light. In reality, the fall was a terrible thing, which God in His goodness seeks to reconcile.

You have to read the entire second chapter of 2nd Nephi to understand. Moses 5:1-12 also helps.
Similar to the Asian doctrine of the Yin-Yang, there must be an opposition in all things. There is darkness to contrast with light, coldness to contrast with warmth, sickness to contrast with health, down to contrast with up, sorrow to contrast with happiness, evil to contrast with goodness.
We've been sent to earth to experience a world different from Heaven. In the Garden, Adam and Eve lived in a state of innocence, knowing neither good nor evil, neither happiness nor sorrow. God told them that if they chose to break the limits of the Garden, taking on a knowledge of evil and sorrow, then the world would fall from His glory. But they would finally be able to fulfill His commandment to produce children. Thus, Adam and Eve opened the doors to the school of mortality, and our graduation is made possible by Jesus Christ.
God's plan of happiness has three pillars: Creation, Fall, Atonement. Since before the foundation of the world, Jesus had been preordained to ransom mankind from the Fall. We will be resurrected with the knowledge we've gained from this mortal experience, our spirits molded in the refiner's fire of hardship. It is like how when planning a military operation behind enemy lines, you plan both infiltration (the Fall) and extraction (the Atonement). Satan didn't understand this when he urged Eve to break the Garden's limits.

Except God is self-sufficient, and goodness does not in any way need evil. Before there was evil to be contrasted with, God called creation good. While God knew that many would stray if He gave humanity free will, He knew that the joy of those who freely chose Him would outweigh the sorrow of those who reject Him. Adam and Eve had choice before the Fall (and sin brought bondage rather than freedom). Thus, the Fall was not necessary for anything. The reason that God preordained Christ's sacrifice was because He knew the fall would happen, but that does not mean that He desired it.

Yin-Yang is a lie from the devil himself. From the moment that Satan rebelled, he wanted to take the place of God. Ever since then, you can see the lies he has spread everywhere, trying to confuse and equate good and evil, trying to make himself out to be God's rival. In reality, he is powerful, but far far inferior to God in every way. If good and evil were equal, then who would judge between them to call one "good" and the other "evil"? Why is good to be chosen over evil unless good is in-fact superior to evil?

Odd isn't it? Is that someone knocking on your door that I hear? You should let them in.

adam returned to the dust when he died. as stated in genesis. nowhere in the bible does it say he inherited a planet or that he became like god.

I think the New Testament makes it pretty clear that we will be resurrected. And the righteous will be joint-heirs with Christ of celestial mansions.

yes we will!!! absolutely. however we never had perfection. adam and eve did. they disobeyed. hence no resurrection for them. I'd be interested to read a scripture in the bible that says they will. and i believe your thinking of celestial bodies. just off the top of my head

Perhaps free will is just the option to screw up and the right path has already been predetermined? Not saying I believe this but it did pop into my head.

The majority of those who believe in the God of Abraham don't have an understanding of "free will" that logically and consistently aligns with how God reveals himself. Their definition may be more in line with someone who has "secular" in their username.

I'm intrigued, how do you define free will? (Not trying to argue here, I simply haven't heard of multiple definitions of free will until now)

I am a Christian with a biblical worldview, I don't think that you want to argue. Anyway I love to discuss these topics even with argumentative people.

The bible is my standard and God, as he reveals himself in Scripture, is the standard for all that is good, just, holy, and right. So to find a biblical definition of "free will" we must look at what God reveals about his will.

I believe that the biblical definition of "free will" is: the ability to make uncoerced choices/decisions in accordance with one's own nature.

That is how God reveals how his free will is limited. In Titus 1:2 and Hebrews 6:18 it says that it is impossible for God to lie and that that fact is immutable or cannot be changed. God has a perfect and sinless nature therefore he cannot sin. He can't go against his own nature.

When we start with a biblical definition of "free will" then we can discuss the doctrine of man and the doctrine of sin along with 'the fall' and how that affects our free will. Only after that can we discuss why people are punished "for using their free will."

I am also a Christian with a biblical worldview, but up until now I had mostly just gone with the simplistic explanation of "God didn't want to make us just robots"

The issue of man's "free will" is more complex than a one sentence response.

"Robots" would describe what is called *theological determinism* which says that God has determined all of our actions and because God knows what choices we would make and the outcome of said choices, we never really had a "free will" to choose.

Secularists also believe in a type of determinism in which they say our genetics, culture, socioeconomic status, and many other variables determine who we will be and how we will behave and the eventual outcome of our lives. Some prominent atheists like Sam Harris believe that view of determinism.

God did not want to make robots. He didn't make Adam and Eve robots who were "pre-programmed" to make certain choices. They, in and of themselves, or by themselves, could choose to obey or disobey God because they had a sinless nature in the beginning.

They disobeyed and fell into sin and that "curse" passed onto all men Romans 5:12.

Sin negatively affected everything about humans: our body, soul, and spirit. Part of our spirit is our mind, will, and emotions. So our will has been greatly impacted by sin so that humans no longer have the same type or degree of "free will" as 'pre-fall' Adam and Eve. A consistent biblical worldview doesn't attribute to every person who ever lived the same type of "free will" as 'pre-fall' Adam and Eve.

That is the easiest way I know how to explain a complicated subject. If you have any questions about this position, feel free to ask.

Why can I not go out and bury my knife in the head of a murderer or a rapist? We live in a free country, so why can't I do that?

Deep thought for the day..

When you break an infinite standard, you get infinite punishment. It is simple math. It is for this reason that I give thanks that God does not deal with all as their sin deserves, but rather took the punishment upon Himself so that any who accept His sacrifice might be given eternal life. God would have every right imaginable to deal out infinite punishment on all humanity according to His perfect standard and just nature, but because of His equally infinite mercy, He grants eternal life to those who accept it.

Hell is not literally Mordor. The fire and brimstone are symbolic of the sinner's own regret--something burning but never consuming. Knowing he could have done better, but now his chance is forever blown.

If you're a murderer, adulterer, or devil worshiper, then you cannot be permitted to pollute Heaven. You have to go to lesser realms that are more your speed.

You are not going to Hell for having sincere questions. The Restoration in 1820 started because a young man had questions. Faith shouldn't be based on the Appeal to Tradition fallacy. God wants us to be intelligent beings.

There are a lot of genuine Christians out there, who are charitable and honor God's law of chastity. And nothing in the Bible has been disproved. Science is our narrow slice f understanding God's larger reality. Archaeology, anthropology, and radiometric dating are only ever guesswork. It's like CSI trying to solve a crime scene, after four thousand years of the scene being contaminated.

no where in the bible does it say man has an immortal soul. check ez 18:4, ecc 9:5, 10

Physical death is separation of the body and spirit. Spiritual death is separation from God. It is the condition of the Fall of Adam and Eve. And only the righteous will be fully redeemed from the Fall, and can enjoy eternal life (living life to the fullest for eternity). This mortal life is the time to prepare to meet God, for there are so many good works here that cannot be done in the spirit world.

For Old Testament references to the afterlife:
Genesis 2:9 paired with Alma 12:21-27
1 Samuel 2:6
Job 14:14 paired with Job 19:26
Isaiah 25:8
Isaiah 26:19
Isaiah 33:14
Ezekiel 37:12
Daniel 12:2
Hosea 13:14

first off, wow thank you for your very detailed reply. :-)
second. i enjoyed reading your first paragraph. I would love to read the Bible scripture(s) that say that. can you post them please?

here is 1 samuel 2:6 "The LORD brings death and makes alive; he brings down to the grave and raises up.--- no mention of an immortal soul. just says the LORD raises up, as in the resurrection.
Job 14;14 Can the dead live again? If so, this would give me hope through all my years of struggle, and I would eagerly await the release of death.
Job 19:26 And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God,--- i don't see how these 2 scriptures coincide? job will see God after the resurrection. notice John 5:28-29 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.

Isaiah 25:8 he will swallow up death forever. The Sovereign LORD will wipe away the tears from all faces; he will remove his people's disgrace from all the earth. The LORD has spoken.--- this is a prophecy about the resurrection, again, no mention of an immortal soul. also notice how it says the LORD will wipe away the tears from their faces. other than the eric clapton song I've never heard of tears in heaven. does this mean this it talking about a resurrection to the earth?

I've read the rest of the scriptures you've quoted. all of them talk about a resurrection of the dead. they speak of it as its a gift from God. not a right. still no mention of an immortal soul. can you please post the Bible scripture that says "the soul never dies". I'd love to read it. I know it says it in the pearl of great price at moses 1:39. however I want to read it in the bible. thank you for your time. :-)

Nothing in the Bible has been disproved - are you kidding me? You clearly don't know your Bible. According to it the ratio of a circle to a circumference is 3 (not 3.1415926535893...), the earth has corners, the firmament is a solid roof over the world, the earth is at most several thousand years old (not say 4.7 billion years), the earth was formed before the sun instead of the other way around, and a bat is a bird but an ostrich is not.

Examples of contradictions:
http://answering-christianity.com/101_bible_contradictions.htm
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/proph/long.html

(And DB, I recommend not trying to sub in the BoM, because it's got even more contradictions and liftings than the Bible.)

I don't know where in the King James Bible it says that about the circumference of a circle. And if it does...well, 3 is the closest estimation to 3.14.
When it says "the four corners of the earth," it doesn't literally mean that our world is shaped like a square. It means every place on earth. One can argue that it is a reference to the northeast hemisphere, the northwest hemisphere, the southeast hemisphere, and the southwest hemisphere. Anyhow, you have to remember that the biblical Jews were Eastern writers, not Western. They were more focused on using words to paint effect, than they were on building concrete images. A Westerner would say "The sun is rising," but an Easterner might say "The sun is leaping from its bed of sleep." That's also why the Bible describes the sky as a roof--space travel was completely out of reach for the ancients, so they might as well have considered the sky as the limit.
I'm not sure where the Bible says that about bats and ostriches. But look, "fowls" could fly, "beasts of the earth" could not. The Hebrews didn't have the exact same method of classifying the animal kingdom that we have today.
Radiometric dating is ASSUMING that the earth's chemistry and radioactive environment have remained the exact same since before God said, "Let there be light." It doesn't take Intelligent Design nearly as long to organize a planet as it would take random chaos (NEVER is a super-long time).
Paleontology, archaeology, and anthropology are only ever guesswork. Imagine a CSI team trying to draw definite conclusions from a crime scene that has had 4,000 years of contamination.
Another Testament of Jesus Christ is the most correct book on earth. A man will draw nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any self-help book. The Bible is the "stick of Judah" and the Book of Mormon is the "stick of Joseph" foretold of in Ezekiel 37:15-20.

I've looked at it, and it's a naked borrowing of language and phrases - long passages of it in places - from the King James. Which is ironic, since there are errors in the KJV text that are naturally reproduced, as a result, in the BoM text, that Smith could not have known at the time were errors.

Are you familiar with the fact you can find a pre-modern copy that still reads "White and delightsome" people changed to "pure and delightsome"? That Mormons believed firmly that black people had black skin because they were under the curse of Cain? That the church only reversed this teaching for financial reasons when they were threatened with a loss of tax-exempt status, and so they "sold" your teaching for money?

Did you know someone gave Smith a papyrus to translate, and he did, and it with its translation now appear in D&C. Except Smith could never have foreseen that we would learn to translate REAL Egyptian and can now read it easily - and his "translation" is a bunch of b*llshit he made up that has nothing to do with the plain meaning of the original (basically wishing deceased someone well in the hereafter)?

Did you know that while Smith's claim that the Indians of North America were a lost tribe of Israel might have sounded plausible to 1800s, modern genetic science – which again the non-prophetic Smith neither would nor could ever have dreamed of – has again proven (in spite of the best desperate failed efforts by BYU) by different techniques that the descent is from Asia and definitely not from the Middle East, and positively not from Jews?

You can learn this and lots more. But only if you're willing to take the red pill.

(I should technically correct and say Pearl of Great Price rather than D&C, but you of course know the two are often bundled.) And while you should not disregard each of the important points above, this being imgflip, I decided to take a single illustrative example and condense it too into a...more easily understood visual, sort of like...you know...ummm...a meme ;-) I hope you're open-minded enough to consider its point.

279bwv.jpg (click to show)

"And now remember, remember, my brethren, that whosoever...doeth iniquity, doeth it unto himself; for behold, ye are free; ye are permitted to act for yourselves; for behold, God hath given unto you a knowledge and he hath made you free. He hath given unto you that ye might know good from evil, and he hath given unto you that ye might choose life or death; and ye can do good and be restored unto that which is good, or have that which is good restored unto you; or ye can do evil, and have that which is evil restored unto you."
--Helaman 14:30-31

any chance you could translate that to modern english. and maybe make it not so repetitive?

Repetition is emphasis. And that passage is more clear than many biblical ones.

so your answer is No. and No. . . . ok then. good talk. the bible is no where near as repetitive as BOM. that passage is pretty unclear if you ask me. just curious though. when is the last time you used the words ye, or hath, other than quoting the BOM. or the KJV Bible? is it part of your common language? or no?