Is it A.conception, B.somewhere during gestation or C.only after birth?

Yes. A fetus inside a human woman never becomes, say, an elephant or a rhinoceros, or anything besides a human, so it's a safe assumption to say that a fetus is a human

Yes pretty much, cutting out an animals fetus or human fetus would still be labelled or defined as a human fetus or rabbit fetus or whatever animal it happened it. It’s just one of the growth cycles of species

When it turns 21 years old.

Rotfl. Actually the human brain isn't fully formed until the early 20's if that's the standard by which we're basing humanity.

Age 21: You legally can now buy alcohol, handguns, lottery tickets and gamble in casinos or online.

Age 18: Legally you are now an adult, with all the responsibilities of adulthood and most of the perks. You legally can now vote, be in the military, sign contracts without parental consent and buy cigarettes, a rifle or a shotgun. You are are also old enough that having sex generally can be considered consensual. Your criminal record becomes permanent.

Age 17-15: Legally you are a minor and cannot be held to contracts. (Good luck buying a car on your own from a dealer.) Having sex is generally considered non-consensual depending on age difference. You could be tried as an adult for some crimes. Crimes committed as a juvenile are sealed. Incarceration for crimes committed as a juvenile ends at 18 years of age.

Age 14-11: Legally you are a minor for just about everything. Good luck getting into an R-rated movie without your parent attending.

Age 10 and under: Legally you are a minor, and generally not considered mature enough to babysit your younger siblings. Red Cross requires you to be 11 years old to take their babysitting course. Also generally, you are not liable for your actions. Hence the age restrictions on the high diving board at the public pool.

Notable exceptions for under age 18: A female at any age can get the pill or an abortion without a parent’s consent or knowledge in many states. Apparently at any age a minor is mature enough to decide what gender to be and obtain life altering treatment.

It is human, alive, unique, has a heartbeat, a face, a mind, and it's asleep. Not conscious yet, hasn't achieved sentience, or personhood.

You mean it has an organ called the brain or a mind which is the feelings, thoughts and memory that takes place in the brain? The cerebral cortex doesn't begin to function until close to 40 weeks although at 28 weeks REM sleep with dreaming begins.

Would you say it's not a person until birth? But it's a human before then?

Yes.. I would say it's a human before birth.. but being human is not the label to shoot for. Personhood is. Many things are human but have no rights.. such as your tonsils, appendix, or other commonly removed organs.

Hmm, ok fair enough. So would you consider a fetus on the same plane as an appendix? Even though it has an entirely different DNA and is growing as an individual different from the mother?

The fetus is generally argued to be special by traits which other human parts have. The argument to claim personhood in my opinion has to start in the mind of the unborn. It is that part where we exist, our personality, or soul if you will. All those human organs have unique DNA also.. yet they have no brain. And as for the brain or mind of the fetus.. it is in a hormone induced sleep. What it might feel or perceive if awake in the womb would be your argument to make asserting a consciousness or personhood.

So a person is such only when they are aware they are an individual person? Newborns aren't self aware, that actually doesn't happen until the first few months after birth, unless you also require self expression such as talking that doesn't happen until close to age 1.

I've never heard that my appendix would have an entirely different DNA from my tonsils or my blood. You have 1 DNA that's assigned at conception. If it was different all throughout your body that would sure complicate forensics wouldn't it?

Yes.. I'm sure that after birth our journey to awareness, perception, and consciousness begin. Before birth..? idk. I'm not saying each of our organs has unique DNA different from the rest of our bodies. I'm saying that the pro lifer argument which says a fetus has unique DNA different from it's mother fails because WE don't care about DNA. DNA doesn't make our tonsils, gall bladder, appendix, or other parts of self achieve personhood with legal rights over the rest of our bodies.

I'm curious if anyone on your side has attended or hosted a baby shower for a woman that plans to carry the pregnancy to term?

Yes.. we have baby showers for wanted pregnancy.

So I assume you refer to what she's carrying as a baby in that instance?

I call it a possible person. We just take it for granted that all fertilized embryo's make it. They do not.

Most baby showers are held during the third trimester, long after viability because you're right a majority of pregnancies don't make it past the first few weeks. I'm interested to see what "possible person" gifts and decorations look like.

I'm sure there have been baby showers for wanted babies where the embryo did not make it. And then ppl have to deal with reality.. that not all fertilized eggs make it.. even when they are a wanted pregnancy. Taking it for granted that all things always work to your will is naive and could be argued as entitlement, that the world revolves around your will.

"Taking it for granted that all things always work to your will is naive and could be argued as entitlement, that the world revolves around your will."

An apt description of "abortion rights" if i ever saw one. Deciding that your will is more important than another's life

So do you think that a woman's ability to reason is inferior or something? And perhaps she cannot make as good of a decision as chaos does when miscarriages occur? or wouldn't her reasoning be vastly superior to chaos? And thus WHY can't she determine her own fate? Why must she be helpless to her bodily functions? YOU want her to be? for your desired ego pretending to care for the unborn? You'd like to assume some vanity of ego their? Where the woman pays for it? Quite opportunistic isn't it? And when does that end? When do we say if you care, you bear the responsibility yourself?

Killing an unborn baby is a taaaaaaaaaaad bit different than getting a haircut.

More painful too, I gather.

"Muh fetus is just an overgrown hair follicle"

It's not a baby and mother nature terminates pregnancy all the time.

A natural miscarriage of a fetus or embryo that has a malady and would not fully form is not the same as intentionally killing oftentimes a perfectly healthy fetus or embryo (baby)

You're right.. natural miscarriage is fairly unintelligent, simple chaos. Thus a womans intelligent decision to do the same thing which chaos does would be smarter.

Yes, the unborn baby is a a baby (hence it being called a "baby") and no, the Mother Goddess Nature does not terminate pregnancies all the time, the bodies of pregnant women do.

Excellent point, btw, as the body has this ability yet does not do so on demand. Curious that it would not have the biological mechanism for this exclusive 'right'

Who says it must be an exclusive right to chaos? Who says a woman cannot think or reason for herself to determine her own fate? Your shame, guilt, or emotional clinginess to the fetus? nope. quite vain thinking that way. very opportunistic as well.

A natural miscarriage is actually quite different, there is an entire methodical process by which the women's body attempts to safely expell a sick or deceased embryo/fetus. Abortion in case you have never read or watched how it works means drugging the woman with artificial hormones that force her to go into contractions against the body's natural instincts (chemical abortion). A surgical abortion entails inserting instruments inside her to inject chemicals into the baby's heart to make it go into cardiac arrest, pierce the back of the head to collapse the skull and vacuum out the brains,
Then physically tear apart the arms legs and torso. The baby is brought out breech which is never natural and in pieces. Often times the uterine wall can get scratched or punctured leading to all sorts of complications, piecesof the baby's body left behind leading to sepsis of the mother. In pretty much every case a natural miscarriage or a birth or even a c section is safer for the woman. Plus it doesn't involve killing one of the concerned party.

For every pro choice person I talk to I encourage them to research the methods used in real abortions, actually watch videos and read the description. Then come back and tell me how this is safer and better for the woman.

Yea.. I don't think the methods of surgery matter. I think you'd be describing later term pregnancies and most off them don't go that far.

Methods used to kill don't really matter if life doesn't matter.

There's no humane way to kill a human, I suggest you look up all the abortion methods used during all stages of pregnancy before you go defending it as a right. Just a suggestion if you can stomach it.

That does sound grisly, but it isn't the reality for the vast majority of US abortions. The bit with the skull and the brains doesn't happen for abortions before 10 weeks, when more than 2/3 of abortions happen. ( https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/induced-abortion-united-states ) The fetus is "no longer than a watermelon seed", in the picturesque description of lamaze.org.

The fertility awareness method works for women with regular or irregular cycles, post partum women, breastfeeding women, pre menopausal women. The effectiveness of the various methods (there are as many methods as artificial birth control options) when followed precisely according to the certified instructor's directions based on scientific studies done on countless women over several decades is the same as or exceeds the Pill, condom etc. I'm happy to tell you more if you really are for empowering women to take charge of their own bodies without relying on harmful drugs and abortion.

Yeah, I've never liked hormonal birth control either. I'm not sure of your age, but I know one woman who got pregnant at the end of her forties using the fertility awareness method -- just like most methods, it's not 100% for everyone.

Yes, pregnancy can still happen but it's not usually viewed as a mistake that must be killed as with a contraceptive attitude of avoiding pregnancy like it's some sort of disease. I'd be interested to know what method that lady used, some are more effective than others, you can't depend on a phone app or a calendar, rather you evaluate each day the signs in your own body of whether you are fertile or not. It's more involved than just popping a pill. Thanks for your very civil comments and discussion!

This was before phone apps, and as a woman who'd been menstruating for more than 30 years, she really knew her cycle and her body well . . . but birth control, any method, can fail.

(Hilariously, I once had an ob/gyn tell me that my husband and I were quite possibly infertile because we hadn't had any accidents. Fortunately, we were just lucky, but I don't want to presume on my luck, or condemn someone else because they got unlucky.)

As hilarious as your commentary is, please remember to focus on the opposing sides' ideas and pick apart that rather than the individual. Hard as it is to remember, this isn't the politics stream. Thanks 🤗

OOpsie, my bad, got mixed up which stream I was in.
You should have seen one I started typing to another of his. I stopped mid-sentence and exited because it would have seemed like I was engaging in a flame war.

I'll delete my comment.

Sorry typed out a 3 chapter reply to our friend here and realized i posted to you. Lol.

I would rather think it's vain on the part of the woman when it's a natural instinct to protect one's offspring to instead kill it off for the sake of convenience. (Over 90% of abortions are because she couldn't be bothered to raise a child)

The woman's choice of reasoning out a position that she doesn't want to be pregnant is all her own argument to make. She is not imposing on another persons power of will to interject her own will as supreme. She is not taking an opportunistic stand where somebody else bears the burden. The pro birther argument is doing that.

I don't want to be pregnant and to be blunt (sorry if it's TMI) I have sex any chance I get with my husband. Several times a week. I don't take contraceptives, we don't use a condom, we don't withdraw, i don't use spermicide, I've never had an abortion or miscarriage, and I've successfully avoided getting pregnant for years simply by not engaging in an act that might make me pregnant during the few days during the month when I could become pregnant. Why is this so hard for society to understand? A woman's body isn't ready to become pregnant at the drop of a hat 24/7/365. Abortion is the biggest money making scam in history at the cost of millions of lives. For the sake of convenience so she can sleep with whoever she wants whenever she wants? I honestly don't understand it but maybe you can explain this to me. Why can't women see that contraceptives and abortions have weakened women and made them ignorant of their own bodies? When it isn't even necessary. Pregnancy is easily avoided naturally. Empower my foot. Killing is not empowering.

Your choices in reproductive healthcare are YOURS to make about birth control methods. Your disciplines at that do not make everyone disciplined. The libido makes ppl crazy. They act on impulse and irresponsibly. It is self hate and misery loving company to say they MUST be stuck with a negative fate where their reproductive system takes them hostage.

Wow, your cycle must be tremendously regular for the rhythm method to work. Hats off! By the same token, you must be aware that not everyone is so regular.

Etymologically speaking by definition of the terms being used it's only after birth.

I agree with the viability compromise though except in instances of rape, children, safety of mother, etc.

And thanks for joining the discussion! I look forward to hearing different points of view. I appreciate the respectful dialogue from all sides that can be found in this stream.

If you could go back in time to when you were a fetus, at what point would you want to be considered a person?

At the very least as soon as my mother was aware of her pregnancy but ideally at conception. I would want to be loved, protected, cared for and anticipated. How about you?

I’m with you on all of that!

So you believe personhood begins at birth but in some cases it begins at viability? You do realize that viability can change depending on the medical resources available? Even 50 years ago viability is different from now. So personhood can change depending on time and place?

I meant more, viable without medical intervention, and as I said before, I see it as an appropriate compromise more than a scientific fact.

Compromise for what?

For the extremists insisting on all or nothing. :/