Or at the least, bigoted.

It is the only institutionalized racism on the books as it only considers skin color.

Yes, because we must hire you because of your skin pigment and that's all we see you as. Qualifications? Who cares? If you're black we'll hire you to meet a quota.

Companies don’t hire people who are unqualified. (At least, the smart and non-desperate ones don’t.)

If you could hire this one instead of that one because of their skin color, that would be great

Assuming everything else on a candidate's resume is equal, then I do think you should hire the minority candidate.

It is likely that person grew up with more disadvantages, encountered more social obstacles, and had to work harder to reach the same level.

T H E S O F T B I G O T R Y O F L O W E X P E C T A T I O N S

All other things being equal: If you hire the white candidate over the minority candidate, then that's

T H E S O F T B I G O T R Y O F L O W E X P E C T A T I O N S

For whites!

Yeah, that's not how that works.

Why not?

Well, maybe they don't intend to. There are many people in jobs they are not qualified for. Look at Congress ;) Then there is the whole Peter Principle thing. How do you correct unfair conditions without being unfair to one side?

Most unqualified person ever XD

I knew a tech company back in the day that would throw the resumes of African-Americans straight into the trash without even looking at them.

People like to forget that reasons like the above is why affirmative action came about in the first place.

I don't question that racism exists - I've seen it. At the same time, that doesn't mean it is everywhere.

Were you the one that used this quote before?

Yeah, think I heard it 1st from Andrew Breitbart.

Are you stupid?

I guess you didn't know Harvard was having to prioritize white applicants due to the number of more qualified Asian applicants.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/at-trial-harvards-asian-problem-and-a-preference-for-white-students-from-sparse-country/amp

"White" applicants BWHAHAHAHAHAHA

You didn't know that?

Since the late 80s schools from Berkeley to Harvard had to reconfigure admission policies because of worries that Asians were displacing white students. MIT became jokingly referred to as "Made in Taiwan" for a reason.

Rather than the standard test scores and GPAs, the focus shifted more on participation in non-academic clubs and volunteer, etc, activities outside of school (because Asians were said to keep only to academic ones and have no lives beyond that, social or otherwise) and that dreaded "Why I'm so speshul" essay (where Asians were said to focus more on actual accomplishments instead of how they're going to do wonderous things one day that isn't yet today).

Applications with Asian sounding names became more easily dismissed over little nothings while those of whites have been given a more 'open minded' treatment.

Not sure what historical grievances these legacies have had to endure and overcome to merit such loosening of standards, but is if walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, THEN IT AIN'T affirmative action.

That's true but I don't think that was right either. I don't think pledges should have an advantage either. But that was then and this is now.

Except that is what is happening now.

--Legacy preferences?
--Preferences for children of wealthy donors?
--Scholarships for student-athletes, particularly sports traditionally played by rich kids like crew, sailing, and LaCrosse?

Do those other admissions factors counter -- or solidify -- racial and financial privilege?

Yours, sure. The retard i replied to doesn't deserve an answer with such a stupid statement.

All those benefits can cover people from every race. America was 90% white 50 years ago so of course more whites would benefit from legacy preferences.

Would you want to get accepted to a university and not know if it was only because of your skin color?

BlueNinja1's meme was just a pithier statement of what I asked.

Yes, these other admissions plus-factors themselves are not formally race-based but, in the aggregate, they do benefit whites and rich folks.

And indeed: one of the important critiques of race-based affirmative action is that it benefits *wealthy* and *well-connected* black families over those black families who really need help climbing the social ladder.

These are difficult issues to resolve. But the point is this: there are a lot of non-performance-based factors that go into college admissions that we don't normally think about in the discussion of affirmative action. It's not as simple as "meritocracy" vs. "race-based affirmative action."

Assuming we did abolish race-based affirmative action, then these admissions spots would be parceled out largely according to the other factors and not necessarily pure merit.

It is difficult, I'll grant but I believe meritocracy is the only answer. Maybe that way the parents get involved more in pushing high education standards for their kids like so many Asian parents do.

Whites are way under represented in Harvard. Like Asians, for their high scores. Meanwhile, Jews are WAY over represented, even with a relatively high average IQ, thanks to people like Kagen, with her severe in group preference hiring practices, despite being only 2% of the population.

Meritocracy is the only fair way that doesn't penalize people for generational injustice. Feel free to donate to the United Negro College fund if it's still around tho.

btw Hillel is a Jewish source

Uh....Jewish is a race? I thought it was a religion?

The only religion I know of that shows up on DNA tests.

Define the criteria you would use to determine admissions based on “meritocracy” alone

Should Harvard offer guaranteed admission to all applicants with perfect SAT scores?

My husband is a dark-skinned minority and says the practice is racist. He never accepted a job offered in any part to fill a color or ethnic quota.

Respect.

:)

There are smart people of every race. Good for him.

TY. He is a man with a high-level of self-respect, one of the reasons I love him so much!

I'm so happy for you, Norsey. I think that's the key to a happy fulfilled marriage. True respect for each other.

Thank-you Syd :)

It's like doping for the Olympics or something. Like gee, I got this, but didn't really earn it, whoop-dee-dee. And that is something others will also assume or at least wonder, that it wasn't really earned, just given.

Exactly. Kind of sad.

Affirmative action is intended to counter the historical disenfranchisement of blacks and other groups.

Jim Crow ended about 55 years ago. That's longer ago than most of us here have been alive, but still not all that long ago. Black families were deprived of full political rights and a lot of opportunities to build up wealth during that time.

We also should not consider affirmative action in a vacuum, but also in conjunction with other college admissions factors such as:

--Legacy preferences?
--Preferences for children of wealthy donors?
--Scholarships for student-athletes, particularly sports traditionally played by rich kids like crew, sailing, and LaCrosse?

Do those other admissions factors counter -- or solidify -- racial and financial privilege?

In the interests of fairness, I'll make a deal with you and agree to get rid of affirmative action, as soon as these other more subtle unbalancing factors that overall favor rich and white kids are also done away with.

Except it doesn't work that way. Hire the black guy over the white guy because he may or may not have had it rough 55 years ago. But meanwhile, the white guy may have better qualifications, but screw him, right? Gotta make it look like you're doing something good for the minorities, even if it doesn't benefit the majority.

How many less qualified whites have gotten hired over the more qualified POC throughout history though?

What does pre 1960's have to do with now? 95% of black people didn't live back then and even less than that are still working, so rewarding black kids a job because of the color of their skin doesn't make any sense, and is racist.

And by "fix it," I mean really fix it.

Affirmative action, race-based reparations, substantial investment in communities of color, etc.

It's going to take a lot of work to undo the centuries of abuse and mistreatment.

Some piecemeal efforts have been tried, but look around. On a large scale, it clearly hasn't worked.

Yes, throwing more money at it will work this time, I'm sure. Maybe give Sharpton a few million.

Taxes for climate change, reparations, free health care and schooling. Good thing money grows on trees.

You were never a slave master and no American born black person was ever a slave. Get over your guilt that's been instilled by commies that want to divide.

*slave alive today

Whoops!

Are you denying the very real racism that still goes on today? Every time some crazy white person call a POC the N word or calls 911 because they're barbecuing or hanging out at their own house, it's still happening. If you live in a cave and don't know there are plenty of videos on YouTube.

Hard to justify use of the Nword as racism when it's ubiquitous in popular music

I'm not talking about when African-Americans call each other that because they're not using it the same way, usually. Although I could see someone like Candace Owens using it in a self-loathing way.

Chinese, Japanese, Jews, Irish, Italians, Poles, and other ethnic groups: They have all been subjected to bigotry and even state-backed oppression in our country's history.

Yet to a greater or lesser degree, they've now managed to achieve integration into mainstream American life and relative success and freedom from bigotry. Especially descendants of the European immigrant groups now considered bog-standard "white" that didn't always used to be treated that way.

Blacks? Historically: Subjected to worse treatment than all the above, including being literally enslaved. Still subject to a good deal of racism. And look around any American city and you'll see that black neighborhoods are still very segregated and cut off from equal-quality housing, schools, and job opportunities.

Why exactly haven't blacks gotten as well-integrated as those other groups? I can't say for sure. But the evidence of our society's collective failure to integrate blacks is all around us.

I don't believe in it but I agree that if anyone should get a break based on race, in an affirmative action way, it should be the descents of slaves, due to the sheer injustice of the history.

Orrrrrrrrrr perhaps the very people still suffering under the yoke of racism and racist policies STILL in effect AKA Native Americans?
And I mean that only in comparison to...

Fact is affirmative action, despite whatever intentions to right wrongs, does so by screwing other who put a lot of elbow grease into fulfilling their aspirations.
Plus it inadvertantly works against those it seeks to help by sticking on them a label, a question mark that everyone else will wonder of them - the stigma from the notion that whatever success they enjoy was short-cutted, not earned.

I actually thought you'd mention that after I posted that because I realized my omission just after.

I agree. I say meritocracy and whatever happens, happens. At least everyone would be judged by the same standards. Except pledges i suppose, because money talks, unfortunately.

Reasonable and based.

Although I may seem like an SJW in the context of ImgFlip, I still consider myself very new to understanding slavery and racism.

I am still trying to wrap my head around the injustice of it all. I may never.

While supposedly defending MY so-called race (a shared language does NOT make a race, btw) today, you called me racist aganst MY so-called race.

Typical SJW playing the PC Messiah trope by being a self-congratulatory patronizing jerkoff totally ignorant about and devoid of any understanding of the people and causes you claim to rally in defense of while reducing them to mere paint-by-numbers dabs on the edges of a regurgitated soul less script.

You ever hear Chris Rock's take on who suffered most, like "when's the last time you saw a Native American family at Red Lobster?"

The problem with same standards is that they aren't always. Applications might still get rejected on account of name or even voice on the phone.
Other than that, people need to put a little elbow grease into what they want of they really want it.

You keep saying “Leftist” as if it’s a bad thing

Which I’m not, even, but, you’ll learn. Or not!

You’re a bog standard Constitutional conservative

You try to accomplish all that in a short time frame and you will re-ignite race-based hatred.

I didn't say that. But your idea to stop racism (which will never fully happen, by the way) is by implementing racist programs that exclude someone based on the fact their skin isn't dark enough.

If they're excluding them based on the color of their skin, you better believe I have a problem with it.

Our society was built on favoring those who are white to the point where every institution that has any control or power is predominantly white.

How else do we make reparations or level the playing field after generations of oppression and denial other than to say "ok it's your turn to go ahead" or "we'll help you get to where you would've been had we not beat or lunched your forefathers simply for existing?"

You've enjoyed the fruits of white privilege for so long that getting even a taste of what the other has been through makes you uneasy.

Whatever affirmative action programs that are left still don't even come close to fixing the problem because there's still so much pushback from the dominant race who's very wary of losing their vice grip on society.

Who said you were going to have to sit at the back of the bus? No one. No one is turning the tables completely around to where all the injustices your forefathers caused others will now be set upon you. But providing assistance or benefits to people who have been previously held back for generations, wtf is wrong with that? Oh it's unfair? When you've been on the upside of the unfairness you're whole life? Typical.

It's all good as long as your race isn't the one having to make any concessions. Got it.

Obviously you never benefited from affirmative action to get an education.

Funny how you push for a racist policy yet you think everyone else is racist. You hypocrite.

Oh but you're not a bigot. You love everyone don't you? @@

No, idiot. If you read this thread, i'm for meritocracy. Sorry if that triggers you because you can't live up to that standard.

Most aren't this blatant. At least that I've seen on this site. It's amazing how people like bluey spew anti white racism and stereotypes yet have the gall to think only whites can be racist. I suppose he was taught racism = Prejudice + power, thereby claiming no black person has power, after Obama and the mayors and police chiefs of many cities, politicians, athletes, music artists or the successful black leaders of many businesses. What an eternal victim.

"You cannot free a man from slavery, he must free himself."

It doesn't imply any of those things. And I'm specifically responding to the other person who said you can't solve racism with racism. What she means is: you can't solve racism with reverse racism. In that context, that's what it would be. And I don't see either if you complaining about the affirmative action that benefits whites at Harvard, just the one that benefits other races.

I think that where it becomes a problem is in the idea that it has to be corrected (or even can be) in a generation. Remove the barriers, sure, but then let the process work itself out. There will always be ne'er do wells (regardless of race) who will claim racism as the cause of the failure to thrive.

You may change who the rich are, but you will not do away with their privilege. Privilege exists, everyone has some degree of it, and it's not going away. It is not distributed evenly among the members purported to have it. Disadvantaging one group to benefit another, even to correct a past wrong, is not justice.

By the way, my Irish ancestors were treated horribly in this country, and others - is someone going to write me a check?

No because you're white. You've enjoyed white privilege. You will never fully know what it's like to be black or have dark skin in this society. You might try to imagine but you won't even come close to understanding how it feels to be told you don't belong somewhere or to have someone look at you with that hatred for the way your skin looks.

This whole thing is taking so long to fix because no one is trying hard enough. You don't really want to fix the problem because you're scared the tables will be turned completely in the opposite direction and you'll find yourselves at the back of the bus. While that's entirely improbable you're still afraid of it happening. Which is why most of affirmative action these days is merely lip service anyway.

I don't want to seem like I'm jumping on you while others here are giving grief, but in terms of the Irish, white privilege isn't exactly something they enjoyed here and back home.

🔘 Irish were sold as slaves in Jamaica early on. SLAVE slaves - not indentured servants. Today Jamaicans are said have 25% Irish blood. Their influence on the Jamaican accent is another legacy.

🔘 During the Irish Potato Famine from 1845-49, Irish starved while they had cattle in their fields - cattle they raised but were reserved for their British overlords. Salmon a'plenty swam their waters but they weren't allowed to eat them either.

🔘 In the US like the UK, Irish were commonly depicted as apelike, as seen in my post.

🔘 Irish were considered brutish, lazy, job stealers, drunkards, criminals...

🔘 During the 1940s - 50s, they were called "white ni**ers" in America.

🔘 Irish were classed as closer to Africans than whites in the US and Europe.

🔘 There were riots against Irish immigrants in the US, and calls to stop them from coming here.

🔘 In NYC they were treated worse than all others, including African-Americans who got preferential treatment for jobs, etc.

🔘 NINA - No Irish Need Apply - signs were posted next to Help Wanted signs.

🔘 They rioted in 1863 in NYC when their names were called more than others in a 'lottery' for the draft for the Civil War.

🔘 The KKK was on the way out till Birth of A Nation came out in 1915, giving it a boost. But a bigger boost was reaction to an influx of Catholics from Ireland and Italy.

🔘 A BIG reason for Prohibition was this Catholic influx (also of Mexicans) - fears that drunken Catholics would ravage American women as well as other assorted crimes.

🔘 When JFK ran, he had to assure people that as an Irish Catholic, he was not beholden to the Pope, a major concern to the majority of Americans.

Granted, things may have changed since those days, but clearly "white privilege" is a matter of perspective.

Never knew that about the Irish and Jamaicans. Although i knew Jamaica's most famous son was half English. Interesting.

Learned that on this site early this summer, someone brought it up, both me and AnotherWorldView called bs, but we then looked it up and confirmed it. AWV is more knowledgeable & thorough than me on such matters, so him confirming it confirmed that I read legit sources.

Didn't go on for too long, but it did happen. The Brits even took kids away from their folks there to sell as slaves.

Haven't heard of him in awhile.

The Irish part of me wonders why pot instead of severe alcoholism took hold there lol

He comes and he goes...

Pot took a hold there?

Heard a few years ago that actually the Spanish are the biggest drinkers in Europe.

I got into it with him but I respected his knowledge.

Rastafarians smoke a pound a week, no doubt.

I think I heard that too. Kinda surprising.

Under an older account we had a big confrontation round 3 yrs ago.

haha, I thought we were talking Ireland, my bad!
Pot should be easier to produce in Jamaica, just sow seeds and wait...

Was alcohol percentage a factor? They drink more wine than beer I reckon.

Yes I know about (most of) that. The Irish were treated very badly early on. But today they mostly look white unless they're mixed of course. That's what I meant.

POC are still dealing with racism today unlike white descendants of the early Irish immigrants. They didn't have to experience the generational oppression that POC did. They could "pass" as it were. That's what I was trying to say.

But you had responded to what deadboxprime said about Irish ancestors.

Anyways, I get what you're saying now.

Thank you for this.

No problem.

Waaaaahhh!!!! Only whites are rayyyyyycissssssss and the knock out game isn't a thing and no non white has ever looked at anyone with hatred!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey look. The anti-white racist is calling us white supremacists. Never saw that coming.
#BlackFragility

Reminds me of a book you all should read...

You're a white supremacist. All of you are in this thread it's obvious. And don't pander to me about how hard life is or will be. You don't know what I've been through. Being American is like winning the lottery. GMAFB. I guess I should just be thankful for all the racism because other people have it so hard. TYPICAL.

So obviously I'm talking to a bunch archaic thinking boomers who were raised neck deep in racist America. Of course you don't understand nor will you ever, what it's like but you are all very keen on the possibility and *thats* why you're against affirmative action. All of your posturing means zero because you're transparent as hell.

I just thank God that your time is almost done and once you Magats are gone our society can work toward something positive in terms of race relations and move forward from your bullsh*t..

Okay NOCAL boomer. I don't care where you're from. Cali has a large number of bri-Nazi groups. Wow you must've hated all the diversity and free love in SF in the 60's. Or maybe it was your racist parents who did?

God forbid the government enact policies that don't specifically benefit your race. If they did, and there have been plenty over the long number of years you've been alive (is it 60?) you have nothing to say about them, literally no comment whatsoever. So why do you only have a problem with the ones trying to help people of other races?

BECAUSE YOURE A WHITE SUPREMACIST. So put on that hood, raise your arm in salute, and seig heil Trump!

Holy f**king victim.

He already talked about how black people like him have no right to publicly swim or bbq LOL

Maybe you're not white maybe you are. You definitely have a white supremacist attitude so if you're not you might want to get that checked out.

Why would you assume that I am white? Because I have Irish ancestors?

I am sorry that you have that experience. I am not and will not be held responsible for it. Privilege exists. Class privilege seems to be mistaken for other forms, but there always be privilege.

You cannot change mindsets overnight. This is something that will generations to achieve, if ever, and you cannot achieve equality through inequality.

{{Check out my reply above}}

correct me if im wrong, but I think some black people who (or their ancestors)were never influenced by jim crow can still get affirmative action so the can abuse it that way (idk if this is real or not though, just a thought)

also, i see that it can be easily abused by somebody who has a tiny bit of dna of some race yet claims to be this race (pretty sure you can do this) and getting into a job or something because of this

No i mean immigrants (for example, those who just immigrated here in like the 2010s)sorry i didn't explain clearly enough. I understand how like it could benefit people who were affected by, say, jim crow laws though. can you please explain how it benefits them/ why you support it

its okay if you don't have the time

btw thanks for replying

There will always be those who take advantage of the system. Like rich people who legally disown their kids so they can qualify for education grants with an income limit. But I don't think that should stop us from trying to help people. Of all the social welfare programs why are we trying to make it harder for people to get educated? That makes no sense.

that is a good point. thank you for sharing(i didn;t know rich people disowned their kids just so their kids could get into college). but on the flip side, there will be others who won't be able to get into a specific college (not that it matters much, just some food for thought) that will be pushed out just because they aren't of a specific race. that being said, it all depends on the amount of people who abuse it.i think that administritave action will be the best choice until we find a better solution that works. however i am opposed to it if it allows someone with lower qualifications get picked vs someone with higher qualifications but not as diverse, as i think diversity could be a good deciding factor (if resumes were equal) but not as THE deciding factor
that is just my opinion, you dont have to agree with it but you can share yours

You also have some valid concerns but just keep in mind that for generations, from the days of slavery well into the early 80's, people were passed over on college apps because of race, or denied being able to buy a house in a certain neighborhood and had to move to a city where they did sell to blacks.

The oppression of POC in this country permeates every fiber of America. The tools on this site will never admit it. Obama should've been a step forward but the racists HATED having a black president and Trump knew that he could tap into this powder keg and ignite a whole resurgence of this crap. MAGA is about making America like it was when the boomers were younger, like back in the 40's when racism and white supremacy was never challenged like it is now.