One of Thomas Sowell's many truths

Absolutely dayum right!

Here's the equivalent data from Harvard, not as nicely displayed as the Yale data and I can't tell for certain which year it's from (I think it's 2017 as well), but it very closely matches the Yale data.

"Graduation Rate at Harvard University
At Harvard University, the graduation rate is 98 % within 150% normal time, the retention rate is 99 %, as of August 31, 2018."

https://www.collegetuitioncompare.com/edu/166027/harvard-university/graduation/

I'll look into this Sowell guy. I like Ta-Nehisi Coates myself.

He's far too radical for me to subscribe to everything he says, but he's a brilliant prose writer and always has something interesting and provocative to say.

Enormously influential modern American writer on race, whether you like it or not.

"But since you bring up Coates, he is, of course, a virulently racist radical Leftist..."

Well? Was I wrong in assuming you didn't like Coates? lol. I have no idea why you object so vehemently to an assumption I make only to in the end prove me right for having made it.

And as for Sowell... yeah... never heard of him before, but it took me about 10-15 minutes of research to demolish one of the first points I read while reading up on him, so yeah.

I have no idea what sorts of thoughts you find interesting from Sowell but if you'd like to debate one of them go ahead and post one.

I made a (very safe, honestly) assumption, and I was right.

Having read Coates, and having read you, was there ever any chance in hell you would like Coates? No.

Mr. Sowell's (totally unoriginal, by the way) thoughts on the detriments of affirmative action are a feel-good "just so" story but are pretty well contradicted by the evidence.

Mr. Sowell's thoughts on this, from https://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/sowell-gop-blacks-unpromising/2013/03/22/id/495990/

--"Sowell says his new book developed from a previous work, “Intellectuals and Society,” and that affirmative action is 'one of the few policies that can be said to harm virtually every group in a different way.

--“'Obviously, whites and Asians lose out when you have preferential admission for black students or Hispanic students — but blacks and Hispanics lose out because what typically happens is the students who have all the credentials to succeed in college are admitted to colleges where the standards are so much higher that they fail.'"

Well? How should we measure that claim? Let's take a quick look at the data from Yale, which appears to be unusually transparent about this subject: https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university

Scroll down the page and you'll find a chart with graduation rates broken down. The available data goes from 2012-2017. The chart is interactive and you can play around with it.

Regardless of the settings you choose, you'll find that graduation rates by race group are strikingly consistent, and high. And in the case of 2017, actually a perfect 100% graduation rate among American Indians/Alaska Native.

How can this be so? Well -- hardly *anyone* drops out of Yale. Graduation rates are extremely high. There are all sorts of reasons for that, that I will skip over for now because this comment is already getting tl;dr. But basically, if you have the credentials to get into Yale, and lucky enough to be admitted, you are extremely likely to graduate.

The final thing I'd add is there are all sorts of non-racial "affirmative action" plans that greatly influence elite college admissions -- Alumni preferences, donor preferences, athlete preferences, etc. -- which end up claiming a lot more spots than the racial preferences.

Bottom-line: At least as applied to elite universities, the entire concept that race-based affirmative action is a detriment to the admitted students is just totally contradicted by the evidence.

"...spend a serious amount of time listening to Friedman, Sowell, Jordan Peterson, and others..."

Nah, let's just do it point by point. You've already done that listening for me.

What have you, personally, found valuable in these scholars' teachings? Start anywhere. I'll listen.

I do not pay for right-wing indoctrination. I can get it everywhere for free.

By the way (since this apparently matters to you), I have listened to Jordan Peterson. Overall impression: Good guy for *deradicalizing* right-wingers.

If by "Friedman" you mean Milton Friedman, and not the NYT columnist Thomas Friedman (I can't imagine you'd be citing him favorably), yes, I have read some of his ideas and like some of it.

Thanks for reminding me. I actually got my carbon tax thing straight from Friedman.

"Phil Donahue: Is there a case for the government to do something about pollution?

"Milton Friedman: Yes, there's a case for the government to do something. There's always a case for the government to do something about it. Because there's always a case for the government to some extent when what two people do affects a third party. There's no case for the government whatsoever to mandate air bags, because air bags protect the people inside the car. That's my business. If I want to protect myself, I should do it at my expense. But there is a case for the government protecting third parties, protecting people who have not voluntarily agreed to enter. So there's more of a case, for example, for emissions controls than for airbags. But the question is what's the best way to do it? And the best way to do it is not to have bureaucrats in Washington write rules and regulations saying a car has to carry this that or the other. The way to do it is to impose a tax on the cost of the pollutants emitted by a car and make an incentive for car manufacturers and for consumers to keep down the amount of pollution."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2014/10/12/what-would-milton-friedman-do-about-climate-change-tax-carbon/#51501cfa6928

Remember how I said a carbon tax was "favored by moderate and conservative economists"? This is what I was referring to.

That was a Milton Friedman quote from 1979. Pretty crazy how he already recognized air pollution as an issue back then, when global warming was only about right here on this graph.

It's not a problem. That's why I included that caveat!

I am aware that minority graduation rates drop off steeply with lower-caliber institutions. Since these colleges are less-selective, and these institutions honestly don't really prioritize diversity as a core institutional goal, affirmative action is less of an issue.

How should we solve *that* problem? Probably by increasing the quality of K-12 public education overall.

My data still conclusively refutes the "mismatch" theory. Minorities who get into top institutions, whether assisted by affirmative action or not, graduate at top rates. There is no mismatch.

You're so out of your depth.

I came onto your turf, to discuss Sowell, as you invited me to do. I found a claim Sowell made about affirmative action that I criticized -- I will be charitable and decline to say "debunked" -- with real data.

I then asked you to share any other idea of Sowell's that you found valuable, so we can discuss something else, and you declined.

Instead, you have resorted to calling me "wet-behind-the-ears" and the same old tired tropes about "Left-wingers" that I have heard a thousand times before.

You posture as an intellectual, but the only thing that distinguishes you from the run-of-the-mill right wingers around here is the number of words you use.

My offer to discuss with you any other point of Sowell's, Peterson's, Friedman's, or anyone else's remains open.

Mostly, I’m just disappointed that the hope of a real substantive conversation about any of these intellectuals or their ideas has fizzled out.

But you’ve inspired me to make a meme about Friedman and maybe I will try some of these other guys too

No. The top institutions make up a very small percentage of actual college students in the country. As such they have an ample supply of quality minorities vying for admissions. They can pick and choose among qualified applicants and have enough to reach diversity goals without being forced to bring in those unqualified or unprepared for the work ahead.

Most affirmative action takes place where the majority of applicants apply, which explains the drop-off in retention rates in those areas.

K-12 improvement is definitely necessary to make these numbers improve.

What do you think about Friedman's views on taxing air pollution?

Smart man.

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