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Aw, Guys, Can't We Vote, Too?

Aw, Guys, Can't We Vote, Too? | THE DARKLY SHADED AREA REPRESENTS        HALF  THE U.S.POPULATION; Without the Electoral College half the nation would not have a say in a federal elections. | image tagged in vince vance,electoral college,population,voting,reason for,political memes | made w/ Imgflip meme maker
3,525 views 51 upvotes Made by VinceVance 6 years ago in politics
37 Comments
6 ups, 6y,
1 reply
A candidate running Nationally (that is, running on all the States' ballots for the same office) would almost only campaign in just a few of the States, and all the focus would be on issues POSITIVELY affecting those few population areas... If the far-off rural and suburban people didn't like, then too bad for them!.... USA is NOT a 'democracy', it's a Constitutional Republic... Pure democracy is insidiously dangerous and a potentially mob-rule. The Electoral College is probably MORE important now than it was when it was first outlined (and yes, the 'framers' could 'think ahead' enough to wonder about possible future great population changes).... The REAL reason that the looney Leftists are trying to 'de facto' eliminate the Electoral College is because many LEFTISTS live there (IF, on the other hand the majority of those cities were populated by 'right wingers', 'conservatives', or 'constitutionalists', the Leftists would be SCREAMING that 'we need to protect the Electoral College' -- there's absolutely no doubt about that).... The fact that they're trying to side-skirt the Constitution shows that they don't give a rat's butt about the Constitution, and that it's ALL ABOUT CONCENTRATED POWER
3 ups, 6y,
2 replies
I was feeling all aloe out here with my thinking. Thank you for speaking up. We won't change some minds until years pass and they see the same mistakes made over and over. It's as if the Constitution isn't as well thought out as it is. And, the vanity of of this generation to think that they have a God-like Wisdom that would end, besides the electoral college, but also the Supreme Court (as we know it), the Senate, ICE and the Meat Industry — thrown in for good measure. Thank you!
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2 ups, 6y,
1 reply
Right, so writing all that was a waste of my time, then.

Just understand, if want to control the changes that will happen, you'll have to take part. If you just stick with "old ways good!" then you won't get to choose what the change will be when it happens.
1 up, 6y
mikkiscorpion, I actually appreciated your numerical analysis. I was impressed. Although I disagree with ending the Electoral College, you certainly presented it well.
1 up, 6y
No need to change minds. The Electoral College has been the law of the land for over 240 years. The libs are the ones trying to change minds. When they lose they want to change rules on the EC, voting age, voter ID, who can vote, and the list goes on...
Good meme!
8 ups, 6y,
2 replies
Of 50 States, a candidate would only need 11 to win the Presidency (270 electoral votes).
8 ups, 6y,
2 replies
Dear MikkiScorpion and MiniAppleIs, When the country was founded, in order to feel like each state was being consulted, the framers designed the electoral college. It was so each state had a feeling of being part of this great new country. It is the same today. Every state means something. If not, one state, if had enough people, like New York, they could put up a Hitler type as president and we could the rest of us say. Without feeling part of something bigger, something we all could believe in, States would succeed and there would be Civil War. I could hear them say, "Why are we part of something of which we have no say?"
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6 ups, 6y,
1 reply
OK. Would you like to hear how that story pans out in the modern world, or are you going to keep acting like you know everything already and we don't? Because if it's the latter, it's honestly not even worth the time it takes to write a response.
7 ups, 6y,
2 replies
Dear Mikki, I believe in the Electoral College. I will read what you write with an open mind, if you have the time and want to bother with me. Thank you, for your kind words. Sincerely, V.V.
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5 ups, 6y
OK. It's actually quite simple, but the math doesn't fit into a meme, nor frankly to the comment character limit on imgflip, which makes it annoying to argue with someone who has already made up their minds without hearing it out.

The problem is that after the Industrial Revolution, for the first time in history, more people lived in cities than they did in the countryside. So the mathematical problem with the Electoral College was a problem that the Founding Fathers knew about - and documented - but they assumed that it was too minor an effect to be an issue. On that point they were mistaken. They were mortal men, how were they to know how rapidly cities would grow over the next hundred years?

The problem goes as follows:

The Electoral College = 2 Senators for every state regardless of size + 1 Representative for every 700,000 people in America (by today's numbers).

Electoral College voting power = electoral college votes per capita of each state. You can work this out yourself on any spreadsheet using publicly available data: divide each state's EC votes by the population of the state. Some websites do this for you but I'd rather you crunch the numbers yourself so you're not under anyone's analytical bias.

So in a state where huge cities are, the 2 senate votes count for little when there's 48 or 50 reps, and the voting power waters down over their population.

In a state with no metropolitan centers, 2/3 of the electoral votes come from senate math anyway so the electoral influence doesn't reduce by orders of magnitude.

The result is that the most impact a group of 700,000 people can have on the election of a President is by living in a 3-point state. One man one vote becomes weighted towards places with fewer people living in them.

The bottom line is that everything about the US Constitution sets up a fight between urban America and rural America, and gives heavier punching gloves to rural America. By design.

Wait - don't respond just yet!

Because you are talking to me, mikkiscorpion, and not to someone else, you have an out. And it is an out you should think seriously about, because it's a third option we should all be talking about, and it's this.

[Comment 1, continued in comment 2]
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5 ups, 6y
It is completely possible for us all to sit down and come up with a modification to the Electoral College system that gives equal weighting to all urban centers in aggregate and all rural districts in aggregate for the purposes of the Presidential election. Then it would be completely fair. We could propose a mathematical algorithm for districting so that no court would ever rule that the system was biased to any political, socioeconomic, or ethnic group.

And it wouldn't be the popular vote.

It would be a system that puts the vote to rural America, puts the vote to urban America, and rules in equal weight to the two sides.

If you continue to believe in the Electoral College as it is today, you are saying that the rural voters SHOULD have more of a say in our politics. And some people do believe that, for whatever reason, and I appreciate their honesty and there's not much further to argue from there.

But to say that a popular vote is unacceptable because it gives urban America too much influence over rural America, and then defend the Electoral College as a fair equalizer between the two Americas - THAT is a fallacy. It is mathematically incorrect. We do not accept it.

I'm NOT asking you to support a popular vote, but I'm asking you to either be honest about which half of America should have a stronger weight in these matters, or to go back to the drawing board on our election system because obviously the Founding Fathers didn't think this far ahead.

But do not continue to defend the Electoral College as fair when it isn't. We know it isn't. We've been shouting it from the rooftops and all you can do is give us the same thing we heard in high school social studies. We've heard it all before. Haven't you figured it out by now? Everything is more complicated than it is when we learned about it in high school.

[End of comment]
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5 ups, 6y,
1 reply
Yes, but they're also the 11 most populated states and therefore the 11 most difficult states to convince. Winning a 3-point state is cheap and relatively little work, and as an added bonus, campaigning in a state like Idaho is going to look reaaaaaally similar to a campaign in Oklahoma or Wyoming.
2 ups, 6y
True. And I don't see anyone putting a gun to peoples' heads and saying "YOU will live in the big city" and "YOU will live in the rural area".
9 ups, 6y,
1 reply
Nonsense. Everybody would still have a say with one person, one vote. The only thing your map says is that a lot if land area doesn't get a say.
5 ups, 6y,
2 replies
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6 ups, 6y,
2 replies
I'm right, you know. The Electoral College caters to the wastelands.
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6 ups, 6y,
1 reply
It's true, and a mathematical fact.
7 ups, 6y,
1 reply
I don't understand why you have against states like Idaho, Oklahoma and Rhode Island. You see, the framers of the constitution thought that each state was different, should be heard from and have a say in the Democratic Process. If you put few more million illegal immigrants in California and give them, 16 year olds and convicted felons the vote, they would run the country like they run California.
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5 ups, 6y
My comments are available for review so I don't why you would claim that I was slamming Idaho, Oklahoma, etc. They are 3-point states on the EC where campaigns are cheap and ubiquitous. What is the point in twisting my words?
3 ups, 6y,
2 replies
You'd be starving in a ditch hunting pigeons and trying to gnaw on tree bark if not for those "wastelands".
1 up, 6y
Call it like it is, amigo!
0 ups, 6y
Speak for yourself.
2 ups, 6y,
1 reply
That was rude. Someone gives you a respectful and logical reply, and that's your response?

THAT'S the very exact low brow mentality that the EC was supposed to impede.
2 ups, 6y,
1 reply
I didn't mean to be rude. If it is me to which your comment is directed, allow me, please, to apologize and beg forgiveness. I respect your opinion and those of others that are different than mine —especially those made merely trying to express an opinions. I long for the return of civility in discourse between all people.
1 up, 6y,
1 reply
No need to beg for forgiveness, especially from me, since being rude it what I do.

Was just that that comment from MiniApples didn't warrant that reply.
But otherwise as for me, anything goes.

No worries, VinceVance, you're cool.
0 ups, 6y
Thanks. I ain't no VagabondSouffle, but I get by... ☺
2 ups, 6y,
1 reply
This is also why the constitution tries to have power decentralized (mostly held by the states). The needs of states with large urban centers are greatly different than states that are mostly rural. California and New York should not be able to dictate what happens in Arizona and Colorado. This would not be as contentious an issue if it weren't for the ongoing attempt to centralize more power at federal level instead of allowing the states to govern themselves as intended.
2 ups, 6y
God Bless You! Totally Best Reasoning on this string of comments! Your Comment is what the "fix-the-constitution" modernists can't fathom. It is not all about One World or Globalism. Though we are the "UNITED" states of America, we may never be UNITED. We are individuals, but from different areas. The framers understood this because the were philosophers, patriots who cherished freedom. You can't can get people in Florida to think like those in New York, those in Hawaii to think like those in Mississippi, those in California to think like those in Alaska. New Yorkers would never have Sarah Palin as their Governor. Louisiana would never elect a guy like Cuomo. But Vive La Vive La Différence! You can Homogenize Milk. Part of that process is boiling it to kill the germs. You wouldn't want to do that to people... unless you are Nazis like Hitler or ANTIFA!
3 ups, 6y
It's an outdated system and should be reformed. The US lectures otherwise countries on democracy when its own system is f**ked.
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0 ups, 6y
At present, not even half the country even bothers to vote, and part of that is because they live in a state where they are convinced the vote doesn't matter or change anything. For example, why vote Republican on a national ticket in the state of New York or California? Why vote Democrat if you're in a deep Red state? Without the electoral college, their would be an additional 150 million +/- that politicians could tap into. I'm not taking a side on this, but I think that the outcome is not as predictable as either side would be led to believe.
1 up, 6y,
1 reply
Right. Popular vote isn't the end-all-be-all. Otherwise we wouldn't have had a Senate and only had the house of representative.

I think pure democracy is stupid. How 510,000,000 people can potentially dictate a law 490,000,000 people disagree with.

But in that same vein, I'd also disagree with a republic for the very same reason. Chances are that the guy "representing" me doesn't share nearly enough views with me, and either way it kind if turns into a democracy among Representatives.

Well sorry for the tangential rant.
0 ups, 6y
Absolute Truth is Never Tangential. I am humbled by your Logic and Wisdom. Careful though: The Brainwashed Ideologue Arguers will waste your precious time with Heartfelt Bull$hit and Creative Statistics ad nauseum. It is an honor for you to stop by and comment!
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1 up, 6y,
1 reply
I remember a political stats professor friend (and a registered Dem) who told me that 91% of voter fraud occurs in the U.S.'s most populated cities. It persuaded me that yes, the Electoral College is needed.
1 up, 6y,
1 reply
You are a Memer of Great Intelligence, Norse Green!
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0 ups, 6y
Well thank-you :)
0 ups, 6y
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THE DARKLY SHADED AREA REPRESENTS HALF THE U.S.POPULATION; Without the Electoral College half the nation would not have a say in a federal elections.