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Show me that mocking prayer actually does something productive and maybe I I won’t be so quick to mock those who do so.

So is memeing, playing on apps on our cell phones, and watching My Little Pony. 90% of what we do with our lives is a "waste of time"

Funny you bring up the topic, I just heard Steve Scalise during an interview last night talking about that very subject and how he felt the prayers on his behalf were a tremendous help for him during his post-shooting recovery. I seem to remember Reagan saying the same. At worst you can only reduce it to a placebo effect.

But that's exactly what they are saying. It may not, in and of itself help, but it helps because people believe it helps. It has a psychological benefit (much like meditation). And it isn't harmful. It helps individuals work through grief. It's like saying "get over it, don't bother to grieve, because grieving won't help."

You are exactly right that belief should be based on truth instead of comfort. That is why I believe in Jesus Christ even though it is uncomfortable to admit that I am a sinner in need of salvation. His life, death, and resurrection cannot be denied. The evidence is overwhelming and demands a verdict based on truth, and not on personal preference, comfort, or convenience.

I'm on here defending the value of prayer, and even I'm rolling my eyes at that comment.

Religion IS mostly benign.
Most muslims are peaceful.
Far more religious people accept (and even seek out) medical assistance than reject.
The most common medical procedure that is rejected is vaccines, and that's not due to religion, but bad science.
As for religion being shit, some people are even turned on by shit. Until they start flinging it at me, it's not my business.

Well said YoungGrasshopper :)

That is a dangerous bet to make. I do not say this to intimidate, but rather out of a sympathetic fear. I'm not going to try convincing you here and now, because I already know that an internet argument will not convince you. What I would recommend is reading "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist". Chapters 9-12 in particular have to do with the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus and the writing of the Gospels. If you are so certain you are right, then you don't need to be afraid of being proven wrong. You can even read it just to laugh if you want, but I hope you will be open-minded enough to at least consider the possibility. I will be praying for you :)

Mankind is in denial. In large part over the last 150 years people have struggled to take theology out of the picture. The people who made the atheist faith widely excepted did so for a bad reason that makes sense. They didn't want to admit their sin. It takes a lot to say (and really mean) I'm a bad person. I'm a sinner. And because of that and man wanting to live for himself, mankind started more and more widely to reject God. I know you don't believe in any substance of prayer, and I'm ashamed I didn't do it before, but I'm going to pray for you every day, and I'll try to remember.

Technically, you can't prove that leprechauns don't exist. You and I believe that there's no such thing as them, but to prove it we'd have to see every place on Earth at once. Just as I can't prove God is real, you can't prove he isn't. Everyone has beliefs. And you are a horrible sinner. I am too. And everyone is.

Your claim, which is mostly held in pretty recent time, is that God does not exist. I believe he does. We can't really get to anything more than that. :)

The reality is that everyone is going to die and in the grand scheme of things even a mass shooting isn't even a blip on the radar. Life is meaningless and it would be great if a asteroid struck the earth, because if everyone dies at once, no one lives to "suffer" the loss. Reality is bleak and gives us little to no reason to even carry on.

I couldn't reply to your comment lower down so I'm doing it here. I really like the conversations I have with Octavia regarding faith, because it actually forces me to examine what I really believe. Although my faith lens closer to the everyday Christian side, I still have my own beliefs that would make many raise at least one eyebrow. Having faith is not really the hard, I would almost go as far as to say you believe, but have trouble reconciling it. I've spent much longer in that gray area than out. In my opinion that's where church and the Bible fit in, although at this point I'm not big into either, but I also feel like a person can find their meaning on their own as well, it just takes longer :)

But you have the same perceived problem as those you wish to "correct". You don't have tangible proof of non-existence.

I think the problem is that you are taking a "one or the other" approach to this. Religion or faith should not replace practical real world solutions. When that happens it is a problem. Prayer should be in addition.
For instance if there was a comic book store, you could tear it down to build a hospital (obviously the hospital is better). But if you can build the Hospital next door without tearing down the comic book store, you can still have both.
While there is some bad religion, not all of it is bad.
There is bad science, which says vaccines cause autism, that vitamin C can cure heart disease, or that a special diet can cure cancer. These bad apples don't make science worthless as a whole. They just show you need to be selective in what you accept as truth.

Not just kind words but truth. I found myself this morning stepping outside and thinking about our conversation here. Again, thinking through a response forces me to examine closer what I believe and why.
How do you reconcile drawing the distinction between the patient and the faithful? Using the same analogy, is your position then, that placebos not ever be used again? I don't think you can separate not being cruel and heartless from intentionally tearing down the beliefs of others.
As for using Isis and other extremists as example of why religion is bad, is lazy or not well thought out reasoning. History is loaded with causes and groups that have in one way or another had their original purpose, or their name usurped to do harm or provide cover. Communism which is political not religious gives us many examples, occupy wall street was usurped by anarchists to give cover to their aimless rioting, and so on.

A correction, I didn't say it WAS a placebo, I said at worst you can only minimize it as such.... big difference. You also did not address the examples I provided, you don't have to agree with them politically to agree that these are intelligent human beings, along with many doctors scientists and other intelligent believers.

I understand there are intelligent non-believers, my point was that people aren't being suckered into a religious belief. I think I know you well enough to say that you would not walk into a ward of cancer patients, some showing positive results after a placebo regimen, and take it upon yourself to change their minds about what is helping them. Which makes me wonder why you would come down so hard on religion and fight so hard to separate others from something that brings them joy, comfort and maybe healing?

Why is that even your business? It has always puzzled me that atheists are the ones most likely to have the god complex, driving them to save others from themselves.

I concur. I'm agnostic (leaning towards atheist). If there is no god, there is no "eternal punishment" for falsely believing in one, and if it helps make people "happy" and gives them a sense of "purpose" why would I want to take that away from them (except in the cases where they use their beliefs to harm others). It seems cruel to take that away from them.
If there is no god then everything is a cosmic accident, and life and death are truly meaningless. (As you can probably tell, I'm not exactly happy, I am actually jealous of people with faith).

Re: False beliefs
It depends on whether or not those false beliefs are harmful. Plenty of people "know" trivia that is incorrect. Since it is just trivia, it's not worth my time to correct them.
Personally, I believe that Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster exist (I imagine you don't). I know, logically, they may not. Since I am not wasting time (well, maybe watching a few you tube videos or looking at websites) or resources trying to track them down, or using that belief engage activities harmful to myself, family, or others, I'm sure you would agree my belief is harmless. You probably wouldn't waste your time trying to convince me they don't exist.

Now when prayer is used INSTEAD of using known solutions, it can be harmful. Such as rejecting medical treatment in favor of praying. However, praying in addition to medical treatment causes no harm.
Prayer is also used when people cannot actually do anything to help. "Sending prayers" is essentially sending sympathy.

I never said prayer works. I said mocking prayer makes you a douchebag. You are proving it true.

Praying is like crying. It is how many work through pain and trauma.

Except crystal meth has long lasting effects (such as holes in the brain).

Even if it has no more or less empirical value than Transcendental Meditation or Psychiatry, if someone's condition is improved by it, then it serves a purpose.

The fact that you are so wrapped up in your own bias against religion that you cannot see this, is a 'you' problem.

He's got you there buddy.

Might I suggest that the science of neurotheology could lend itself to this discussion. Prayers and meditation have demonstrable and measurable positive responses in the participants of studies in this field.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3968360/

There are obviously challenges in this field to stay objective, but there are plenty of published studies that reproduce each other's findings. Long story short: The brains reaction to meditation and prayer are very positive on several fronts and measurable using cat scans.

It reminds me of onion boi (onision) who, after a youtuber/singer got shot at a concert and millions of adoring prayed for her to live (yet she died), Onision acted like a total ass and said that "Y U NO MOURN EVERYONE ELSE WHO DED?". Though he's meant to present realism, he did it in such bad taste and inconsideration that he was basically mocking those who's idol and star got rushed to the emergency room and tragically died. I'm not saying prayer works, but I am saying that respecting those who wish to pray for others is a good thing to do instead of being inconsiderate and mocking them.
It might not be the most effective thing to do, but it's the most considerate thing to do.

No no it doesn't work

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