Argue any subject with a leftist and see if that definition works. Hint . . . it does.

Upvoted! I noticed the leftists don't like us telling them what to think, do, say and where to go, they want one direction conversation. One huge difference between us is I rarely respond to them, I never comment on their memes, follow none of them or care what they think. My hat is off to those of you that take the time to attempt to wake up the left, your patience is incredible.

Thanks, but my true goal is to wake up the political independents and the people that have voted Dem all their lives simply because they've never thought things through as adults in a logical manner.

I get that, out here we see Trump signs everywhere, no Biden signs, a few years back they were solid Obama fans, not now and I doubt any of them every vote dem again.

True progress.

It matters not who they vote for, only who counts the votes.

Yes, as we saw in 2020.

I am curious, most leftists feel the same about conservatives not wanting to give rights to gay ppl and such. I know you feel like it's different because gay ppl have rights, what they're asking for is special treatment. But leftists also think conservatives aren't asking for freedom of speech, they're asking for corporations to not be allowed to punish them for what they say on social media. What's your perspective on this?

I think gays need to wake the heck up, they already have and should have the same rights as any citizen, they are not special and do not get anything extra. I can't name one right they do not have; I could name dozens they demand to have and should not. Forcing business owners to make cakes, Churches to hold wedding etc are not rights, those are wants and demands.

I am a small business owner and tell people no almost every day, I don't need bad customers, granted the reasons are different than sexual identity but no means no. If an individual wants something from someone lese some sort of agreement has to be done, and force shouldn't be one of the choices. Don't like the place or its rules, shut up and move on, spend your time, money and talents elsewhere, basically be an adult.

The freedom of speech question is karma, the left invented cancel culture and now on occasion is crushed by the monster they built. The numbers of people demanding things has to stop, calling businesses and making demands is wrong, left or right the side doesn't matter.

Business telling employees how to act off the clock is equally wrong. I had an interview once and they asked for my accounts and passwords so they could check me out, I stood up and left, the person doing the interview was shocked and stated that no one had ever refused, my response well unless you plan to pay me 24/7 what I do in my time is my business.

All of this comes down to respect, treat people equally and stop trying to remake you through them. I have worked with plenty of people that I disliked over the years, people I didn't understand (lifestyle) and it always worked out. We got the jobs done, took breaks together, argued world events and laughed together. I for one do not cyber stalk employees, if they show up ready to work, that's enough for me.

Ok, question, Does that mean businesses should be able to not sell to black ppl? I don't think it'll get that bad. I honestly think these issues you've brought up aren't a super big deal. Gays/trans ppl just want their rights nationalized. Like we did for black ppl. Is that ok? just like the freedom to marry and medically transition (at least for adults).

The question is hypothetical and irrelevant, it doesn't happen. All citizens already have the same rights as everyone else. Issues only happen when people make additional demands. I have dealt with people telling me what I would do, when it would be done and my personal pet peeve customers that want to modify the job after the contract is signed. In every case they were disappointed.

Exactly, they want preference not equality

So talking hormones as a kid is ok as long as your parents Approve?

I wouldn’t advise it, but If you as a family believe that that is the proper course of action then that decision is on you and your parents as long as the “science” supports it. Meaning vetted and peer reviewed science not done one guys study meant to support his claim.

There's other supporting studies for social transitioning.

So you DON'T think that gay marriage and trans rights should be made national law?

That depends on what you consider a right. Do I think they should be able to be married, yes. Do I think they should be able to force a marriage venue with a historical or religious reason to refuse the service to perform the service then no.

I think there are plenty of options so let me explain, any recognized religion that refuses based on doctrine should be able to refuse to perform the wedding, they have rights too. Other religions that accept gay marriage can fill that role. I see it as the same rights as the no shirt, no shoes, no service signs. The owners should be able to refuse anyone they want as long as they can afford the loss. You can't go into a ford dealership and demand they fix your tesla.

I do not see any reason for gay and trans rights nationally, I don't know of a right they don't already have and if I am wrong about that then tell me what they are not allowed to do and where.

They're is no national law protecting gay marriage or trans ppl's right to transition. That's what they want.

You keep bringing up rights of businesses I don't know why. It's not really an issue most gay ppl talk about. It's mostly just civil disputes that occasionally go to court.

Who needs a “right to transition?” You mean Children?

Yeah the UK gives it to cis children not trans children. The NHS has only banned it's use for transgender minors. The UK also has no age limit to giving kids hormonal birth control without parental consent. As long as they can give verbal consent it's allowed.

Yeah. So you're saying, I shouldn't get to make any medical decisions for myself if I'm a kid.

Exactly, it’s the same reason you can’t get a tattoo or drink alcohol. Even though you think you know everything, you don’t and youthful ignorance has led to tragic results throughout history.

Right, you should talk about that with your parents. Just because you want something and think you need doesn’t mean it’s true. Kids want and think they need a lot of things.

Who said definitely? So if a six year old wants a Barbie or spiderman face tattoo no problem? The point is kids need to be protected from childish whims without thought to consequences. You think they should be allowed to make adult, life changing decisions when they aren’t adults? Wrong

What are the statistics of suicide rates in trans ppl who transition as kids vs. Trans ppl who transition as adults?

I don’t know but you might be surprised to find that after the initial euphoria of transition the mental health issues are not resolved. Changing your sex isn’t always the reason for your unhappiness and certainly not a cure.

Is it statistically a problem? Or is it a problem in your opinion.

Is what a statistical problem? Be specific

Puberty blockers aren't harmful. They're used for all kids who start puberty earlier than they want to have puberty. So why haven't they banned puberty blockers for cis kids?

I understand that hormones are used in various therapies but we are speaking of children. The US will likely follow the European science. Though it still allows it currently. Whether it should is the question I say no and you say yes. We will not agree. I hope you find peace and happiness.

“In March, England's National Health Service said it will no longer prescribe puberty blockers to children at gender identity clinics owing to a lack of evidence to support their safety or effectiveness. Instead, they will only be available as part of clinical research trials. “

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/europe-and-puberty-blocker-debate-2024a1000831?form=fpf

Apparently they have limited them in Europe because your statement is unproven by the science.

Do have any statistics to back up medical transitioning not helping trans ppl? And you might want to find different studies for ppl who only socially transition.

Do you have any that it helps? Why add social transitioning? Weak argument so let’s throw that in. We aren’t talking about cross dressers.

But if there's not enough research, then why are they banning it all and not just using puberty blockers?

Because of the possibility to harm.

Also it won't be FDA banning any transgender treatment because it has been accepted and met the study requirements for the FDA. Cuz it is banned in some states with some states also banning social transitioning for adults as well as kids through some laws.

Cuz the FDA has never retracted an approval? Or withdrawn drugs from the market?

No. Puberty blockers and hormones are still used on cis ppl even in excess electively. Even in the UK. Women use birth control to change their hormones and control fertility/menstrual cycles. Men take estrogen to treat hair loss sometimes. Sometimes men have low progesterone which is largely used for trans women and men take that too.

Yeah. So the FDA would ban birth control? Is that what you're saying? Birth control, testosterone, and puberty blockers?

I don't have any statistics that benefit your side. A statistic I know is that if parents use their kids preferred pronouns (which is what social transitioning is) suicide rates drop significantly. I know the de-transition rate is about 3% with ppl regretting their transition about 1% of the time.

You really should research it yourself tho. Don't take my word for it.

There are a lot of variables and the science is still out. Studies purporting to support gender affirming hormones and medication have been found to have flaws and limitations. Thats why the Europeans have restricted gender affirming care for minors citing insufficient research.

You can drink alcohol as a kid in many places. I've never seen those laws actually stop any kids from drinking alcohol or getting tattoos.

I’ve seen people be arrested and fined for buying alcohol or providing it to minors and no reputable tattoo shop will tattoo a kid because they will
Lose their license.

Yeah. If you're talking about social transition. Pre-puberty there's no transitioning to be done because they have about the same biology at that point. Some kids might want to delay puberty, I think any kid should be able to delay their puberty if they want to.

But it's mostly for adults. I'd love puberty blockers to be available for at least male kids, cuz male puberty is extremely hard to re-verse. But I mean, if you agree on at least social transitioning being protected, I think that's great. Let's focus on what we agree on.

I believe adults are free to do what they want. I don’t support children transitioning in any way.

Yeah. Sure. Let the kid try. Tattoos are reversible. And super painful. So if a kids willing to sit through a FACE TATTOO. Yeah. They're pretty metal. They deserve it.

Ya sure let them do whatever they want. 😂 That’s exactly the problem.

Yeah. Kids can drink their parents alcohol legally under their roof and piercings/tattoo kits sell from 20-40 Dollars, with most kids doing stick n pokes on themselves for cheaper if they want a tattoo.

You must've not had a wide enough variety of friends lol. I still buy those piercing kits for the cheap jewelry. I pierced my belly button and it rejected lol. Natural consequences for not going to a piercer. Ppl learn. Ppl scar. It's not a tragic thing. It's life.

I think that ADULTS shouldn't decide what minors can or cannot do with their body. Minors should have the same rights everyone has with the exception of paying taxes and voting. Including sales tax.

Wrong, so if a child decides they want to chop off their left hand because they don’t use it. You think that’s okay? let them do it? children are children and need to be protected from youthful ignorance and bad ideas and undue influence as they are vulnerable to manipulation.

Yes. I got arthritis at a young age and my parents made me manage the pain with ibuprofen because "I'm too young to choose to perminantly go on life changing medication. I need to wait until I'm an adult" and now my wrists are partially fused. So yeah. Kids do deserve to make the decisions to chop off their own limbs. Cuz no adult wants to chop off their limbs without a valid reason and it's the same with kids.

I’m sorry for your pain and parent issues, but that isn’t a good reason to let children make life altering decisions especially for consequences they may not even be able to grasp or process.

The FDA doesn't control what medications are prescribed for. It's called off label usage.

lol what? the FDA approves drugs for sale in the US. They can and have removed previously approved medications from the market many times. If they do they can not be prescribed legally by any doctor.

Marriage, I think we agree on as far as transitioning we do not. The science coming out of Europe shows it is dangerous to children. After adulthood I don't care what people do until it directly impacts me.

I actually agree. I think if we just stop stereotyping gender and biological sex, than no one will need to transition. That's my ultimate goal for society. (I'm not really sure it's ever gonna happen but it's my ideal) Cuz like... Yeah. Everyone should be able to do what they want for themselves.

If what happens? Puberty blockers? Social transitioning? Hormones? Cuz those are all used (except social transitioning) for things outside of being trans.

Apples and oranges as far as those treatments go, not relevant to this discussion. I have personally only known one trans, a bio male I met through a relative. At 18 he had changed his world completely, was living as a female had surgeries, was aged out of the foster system and had moved to farm country and had a good job at a local factory. Having to take time off between surgeries, meant income loss, no work no pay, lots of stress, his foster family dropped him, bio family could wrap their heads around being forced to give up their little boy and an adult female trying to get back into their life 17 years later.

The kid had a lot of stress and unfortunately took her own life. I don't know what was worse the drugs, surgery or just the stress of being on your own for the first time at 18 but the kid couldn't handle it.

So, I don't know much about that world, I am generally against medication for children through and would draw the line on any non-life saving surgeries before the child is fully mature.

How's funding those studies tho? Cuz most studies say otherwise when they're from America.

If you believe American studies after covid there is no hope for you.

Oh yeah. Most transitioning is only done if it's life saving. It's up to the therapist to judge. So yeah. I think you and leftists mostly agree.

No, although both of us want children protected, we disagree completely on the need to transition at all. I doubt that I will ever believe, any child was born in the wrong gender or that a child should be able to make decisions that will impact their entire life.

As adults I tend to care less what people do until it infringes on the rights of others. I would be a hypocrite if I told a leftist that owning a firearm was my right and turning around at telling them that they did not have a right to mutilate their own bodies.

The American studies were pre-covid. I'm also not stupid, I check studies for bias before I use them. Most studies cited are about de-transitioning with the most famously ones used either measure the percentage of trans ppl who regret transitioning, or the amount of trans people who don't get all the stereotypical procedures.

If it happens before 18 everyone involved is a child abuser.