Pride is ok for everyone, not just lgbtq

Let’s win one for the gipper.

There are parts of our history you should regret. There are parts of our history that should make you proud. Denying either is attempting to live in a fantasy world.

True, but there are many vocal people, who are taken seriously, who feel that we should deny it all, because "it's white" (although western culture doesn't necessarily mean white) and "white is inherently bad." That ignorance and a lack of culture are preferable to any knowledge and culture derived from western (i.e.white) history. Even math and science are derided by many (who are actually taken seriously) because our record of it's development is from a western perspective. Even though much of it's development predates what we would consider western culture, and was developed separately (but reaching the same conclusions) by various cultures.
And if this were merely the attitude of a few fringe crackpots, it would not be an issue, but these people are being taken seriously, and such attitudes are becoming mainstream.

I don't think so. I mean, I'm sure there are people who think that, because aren't there people who think things like that about every race?

If you don't lump people together it becomes easy to criticize individuals without seeing it as criticizing the groups they belong to. I think people who look at groups by default and people who default to individual have a hard time understanding each other, especially when they don't acknowledge that difference.

The point is if we don’t agree we are a great country that deserves to be proud of them we no longer are unified by common ground. It is the essence of what makes us Americans. Different viewpoints but a shared love of country. I remember when democrats loved their country and free speech and refused to repeat their enemies anti American doctrine or slogans.

Was that before or after McCarthy? Don't fall pray to that "things used to be so much better" thing. We've had a civil war. Troops were deployed to desegregate schools. There were anti-maskers during the Spanish flu as well.

Don't get me wrong, things are rough...but they were never really as great as some would pitch it.

I love free speech. I love different viewpoints (that's why I'm here).

Enemies anti-American Doctrine and slogans?

Things aren’t as bad as you claim either. Equality under the law is more a reality than ever. Prejudice is practiced by all races. How come you guys never attack China for their diversity and civil Rights? How about Mexico, Russia? Name another country that has more equality and actually has a large diverse population.

We criticize China on the regular. But they are China and unfortunately their abuses are par for the course. Combine that with our limited ability to do anything about it. Maybe view it as a "clean your own house first" situation. What's the saying? Act locally, think globally?

Things are better than they have been in many respects. No doubt. Progress has been made. Mexico and Russia...glad I don't live either of those places.

Our diversity is a strength and a challenge as well. I think I said it before, but if we were ranked on a curve and compared to a lot of other countries, we would be doing well.

But if we rank ourselves without a curve and based on our own values, our grade in certain areas needs significant improvement.

I don’t think promoting racism and division are the path to improvement. That’s a known Marxist tactic just substituting race for class struggle. Hitler villainized the Jew and convinced people they were bad. Samey same with leftist tactics now.

Nazis used Marxists as the boogeyman as well. Fascism with super nationalism was the Right Wing response to Marxism.

Stalin wasn’t kind to Jews. Marxist vilified the Jews as well. Just substitute white people for Jews. Samey same, Marxist ideology to create division and hatred,

That isn't Marxist belief. You make me feel like I have to defend Marxism just to set the record straight. There is nothing in Marxism about creating division and hatred. I'm not saying it hasn't happened in Communist countries or been a strategy, but you specifically said its part of the ideology, and it isn't.

Not Stalin, but Lenin. Lenin was very welcoming of Jews and insisted that the law applied equally to all. Antisemitism was rampant at the time, not just in Germany, so this attitude had been noticed. This had led to many Jews actually looking favorably on Marxism. Thus the link the Nazis used to further vilify Jews and Marxists.

Marx wasn't a evil mastermind. He was a philosopher. He wrote a book about what he thought would be a better society.

My view is that none of the 'isms' are perfect. In their purest forms, all of them are too prone to corruption.

Right so the left is living In That world.

Not in my experience. There are some, obviously. But nowhere near what's on the right. Stolen election, but couldn't make the case to the judges; Covid - its less than the flu...same as...just a little worse...hoax...uh....China's fault. Wayfair is being used to traffic children... There are conspiracy theories on the left, but they don't generally get as much traction.

OJ killed Nicole and Ron Goldman and got off. Sometimes justice fails. Sometimes a bad cop does something against the law. So what, that doesn’t mean the crime wasn’t committed. The Wuhan flu is most definitely Chinas fault. We should be concerned whether it was on purpose. However the point is that the left denies anything in America was ever good as you alluded to yourself. Nothing was that good. It’s not about things we’re so much better but they weren’t all bad all the time. Everything the US did was not about racism and bad.

China's fault - maybe. Shit happens. Viruses spread. Seems to me there's plenty of blame to go around

That's progressives for you. We are about progress and making things better. I guess we probably spend more time focusing on the mistakes than the victories. Maybe we could do a better job communicating the fact that we see the good. Mechanics don't talk about what's right with your car, they yeah talk about the issues.

Its like the democracy quote: Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.

Maybe America is the worst country, except for all the others. If you grade on a curve, we are great. But if held to a higher standard, we have work to do.

America has its issues but our form of government has allowed those issues to be corrected.

Progressive is more about Marxism than progress. It’s a cover. Progressives have created division and promoted hatred. That hardly seems better. Like all Marxists they want to enforce their ideas and silence any opposition.

Shit happens? China does bat virus research that either escapes their lab or is released by them and it’s ok? Funny they blocked travel to Wuhan within China but not the rest of the world and coincidentally during Chinese New Year celebrations where many Chinese return from foreign countries to Celebrate. Typical progressive being wrong but supporting the event that gave them opportunity and ok with Communist Chinas actions. It’s all about the communism.

I know my motives and communism isn't one of them. I'm not excusing China, I'm saying there's nothing I can do about it. I'm not going to be paralyzed by inactivity - work on what you can.

Promoted hatred - looking for justice. Lancing a wound can be painful.

Could it have been from a lab? Yes. Was it? Who knows? The rest of it sounds like just poor timing. They also may not have locked down adequately soon enough, but then neither did we internally as it turns out.

Who’s justice? For what? It is not justice to teach white kids to have guilt or be ashamed because of their skin color. It’s not justice to teach that the country is evil and was founded on it, it isn’t and it wasn’t. All other races are allowed pride. All other countries are allowed pride. Denying entire segments of people that equality is the epitome of racism.

So we can't talk about the past because of how it makes certain people feel? If it happened, it happened. If it didn't, it didn't.

You want to change the narrative around the bad shit? Find new heroes.
When the crimes of our past come up, acknowledge them. If you can't acknowledge that black people were mistreated without seeing it as an attack on white people, then point to the fact that there were white people in the fight for justice. Hell, why does the Republican party (who apparently thinks the parties never switched) get butt hurt over it? Pretty much the entire early Republican party were heroes of this story. Cassius Clay (abolitionist, not the boxer) is one of my favorites. The fact of the matter is as a nation we allowed slavery despite 'all men are created equal', we had segregation, etc. So did other countries. This isn't about us being worse than others, its about owning our past, good and bad.

Now if lies are being taught...that needs to be corrected for sure. Facts are facts.

Letting schools teach you the 'we are always on the side of angels" version of history is bad. Why would you question your government if the past was so pristine?

White guilt - What you are describing is realizing you are proud of a whitewashed America that never existed. So again...refocus. Admit the wrong, and be even prouder of the people who did right. Because there are people who loved this country enough to die to make it better. When just how evil slavery was gets glossed over, you do disservice to those who fought and died to stop it. When you try to ignore the Tulsa Race Massacre (among others) you ignore some of the tragedies some of our fellow Americans have had to endure. You can't really be proud of how far we've come if you don't know where we started.

You can have American pride - but America includes all races. So if you want to remember your roots (German, Irish, Spanish, Greek, etc.) and take pride in that, awesome. But taking pride in being white is not that. White pride is taking pride in what you aren't.

A minority doing something to honor their differences (from the majority) and to try and take pride in that instead of feeling like an outsider or other has a different energy than the majority taking pride in what makes them different from minorities. I'm sorry, but it just does.

Random outliers apparently do speak for the whole. They are the most pronounced and prevalent pushing the narrative and indoctrination with nearly no opposition by the moderates.

America was founded by refugees. Refugees from religious strife who wanted to be free to worship as they saw fit. The leftist narrative that the country was founded by racists is insincere since most countries are or were founded by homogeneous groups of settlers. Immigration came after the founding and the United States has endeavored to live up to its credo that “all men are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights.” Regardless of the times in which it was expressed or who it included at the time. That phrase and the constitutional protections have been used to grant freedom and equality to all residents. It did not happen overnight, but it happened. All are equal Under the law. We have anti discrimination and equality laws and have had for some time. Prejudice exists and is practiced by all races. The left says only whites do, that’s a lie. What can be done about it? You can try to Legislate it. Promote hate against one race because you believe that elevates other races, but it simply is wrong and creates hate.

I believe many who disagree with me hate me because they say so. No more intolerant and hateful people than leftists and communists.

White is not a race, and neither is black, Neither is Mexican. However grouping yourself by skin color is common practice. Many blacks know their ancestry. Are you assuming they are all descendants of slavery who didn’t remember where they came from? What about those that have emigrated after slavery? What about white people who immigrated after slavery? Are they guilty? I will not be shamed for my skin color or ethnicity. I will have pride and will teach my children to have pride in their ancestry and respect the ancestry of others. I would feel the same if I was black or Asian or Native American or latino. Self hate is a leftist trait. Teaching it is a crime.

The founders were racist - by todays standards. Which is an important caveat. Because by today's standards we would not have formed a union with slave owning states. By todays standards Jefferson (44) having an affair with a 14 year old regardless of her being his property would not be accepted.

Prejudice is practiced by all - agreed. We are all biased. Nobody claims that only whites are biased. That is you getting defensive. I don't promote hate against one race or any race.

"leftists" - why, do you think, leftists is used as a derogatory term by the right, but rightists hasn't taken similar hold on the left? I think its because we generally don't lump people together. Your thoughts?

Many blacks know their ancestry - slaves were intentionally deprived of their heritage and religion, forced to take Christian names, learn English, and give up any trappings of their former lives. Maybe some managed to hold onto something, but I'm not sure.

You again focus on who committed the crime while my focus is on the victim. I'm not guilty of what my ancestors did, but I can see that our shared history continues to impact some people more than others. I choose to take responsibility for those actions and to work toward a more perfect union. Not because I'm white and they are black, but because to do otherwise would give me something to feel guilty about. I don't say "Democrats kept slaves" because Americans kept slaves. I don't say "Congress took us to war" because we are a democracy and America went to war. I don't say that whoever locked Japanese in concentration camps - we did it as Americans.

So America had slaves. America had segregation and Jim Crow. America killed half a million Iraqis and no WMD's were found. I could be a little bitch and try to blame other people or make it not my fault, but with the freedom inherent in a democracy we have responsibilities as well. If we step up and shoulder our responsibilities then we can and should be prouder of ourselves than any other nation. Or we can continue to pretend like we were bystanders in history.

I mean it with full honesty: I don't understand why people get defensive about it. I'm white, but I don't see that as a tribal line.

I don’t see the NRA speaking out about white people being shot by police much either so not sure that’s a good indicator. I do believe there is a perception of criminality based on the bias of the police profession. Blacks are disproportionately represented in police interactions. There are many reasons for this and many of those include things the black community has not addressed.

Having trouble following the threads. I respect that you were able to articulate without resorting to the usual insults and name calling. See you on thext thread,

So, apparently they don't speak out against cops period. Apparently their membership has a lot of cops and cops are good donors, which has led to a very "all criticism of cops is a sign of moral decline" attitude.

Anyone can talk about the past and certainly denounce things that happened in that past from a Monday morning quarterbacks perspective. That is entirely different than denouncing an entire country and it’s founding. White privilege is really just predominant culture privilege and every country is set up for its citizens to prosper. Mexicans have Mexican privilege in Mexico. Chinese have chinese privilege in China. Kenyans have Kenyan privilege in Kenya. There is no great evil because the founders set up their country to the benefit of their predominant culture. Selling it as such is a lie and truthfully a racist lie because it is only applied to countries established by whites.

I know the left hates the fact that America has been more good than bad to the world. Have we made mistakes, yes we have, but we are still the country the world desperately want to get to. That isn’t because leftists are right. Whitewashing history has nothing to do with denouncing your country. Revisionist history isn’t necessarily completely accurate either. The idea that our founding was in 1619 on slavery is revisionist drivel.

So exclamations of “Black Pride” and “Viva la Raza” are ok but Being proud for a white is wrong? That’s exactly the point. Pride in your country is completely different than individual pride. I believe we each deserve to be proud of our heritage as well as our country, regardless of what heritage that is. The left doesn’t agree, as you so exquisitely described that white people having pride is racist. It’s only when you believe that you are inherently superior that individual pride is a problem.

White Guilt? I have none for I have not given offense. My skin color doesn’t convict me unless your a racist.

America has always worked at improving. The current communist leftist idea of destroying it to replace it is a lie.

Denouncing an entire country and its founding - You need to cut that red Kool-Aid with a bit more water. I'm not saying there aren't a few people condemning America, but there are also people claiming Democrats worship Moloch. Don't focus your attention on the random outliers or pretend they speak for the whole.

Our founding fathers weren't saints and are not above reproach. Our founding documents aren't holy documents above criticism. The framers did do an excellent job of putting our founding principles to paper and writing a constitution that still servers us 244 years later.

The majority have advantages over minorities - this is pretty much inevitable. For example: Left handed people are disadvantaged. Scissors, the release and control mechanisms on guns, fishing rods, etc. Nobody set out to make life harder for Lefties, but right handed people have advantages that they probably never notice. That's just the way it is.

The problem with your Chinese have Chinese privilege in China is the fact that America is a land of immigrants and while the majority is white, we have Americans who aren't. The fact that some white privilege sneaks in because we are the majority is inevitable and not necessarily racist. However, to deny that the advantage exists and to pretend the field is even might cross that line.

The left hates America - Children think their parents are perfect and that anyone criticizing their parents must hate them (because they are perfect). Adults realize their parents are human with flaws and love them anyway. Continue to hate some strawman version of the left as you will. But if you can't even look at peoples motives and assume they are being genuine (even if you disagree with them anyway) then you will continue to think anyone who disagrees with you hates you. I find that extremely sad.

Revolution was due to slavery - I agree. that is a left wing conspiracy theory (we have them too). The timing is convenient, but there is no evidence other than timing to support it. Also, they would have just come out and said it. People weren't shy about that sort of thing.

White pride isn't racist -> The problem with white pride is white isn't a race. Neither is black, but African Americans have a shared experience and history (as well as being deprived of their African heritage). Black pride is a way of trying to have pride in the history they do have when they don't have an 'old country' to look back to.

Communist left - Red Kool Aid

The entire world was racist by today’s standards, not just our founders. Much of it still is. The history of mankind is fraught with tribal and racial strife. Beginning with the Neanderthals. That doesn’t make the founders any different than anyone else in the world. Blacks and Arabs traded and dealt in slaves for more than a millennia before the US was founded. The lefts’ focus, as if the founders were somehow extremists or more racist than their contemporaries of the world that they lived in is ridiculous and false. So the world was lots more racist in the 1600’s. It was even more savage in the 800’s and if you go further back probably more to varying degrees.

I get defensive when people say, “all white people are racist” and “only white people can practice racism” or when a mayor of a major American city says she won’t talk to white reporters. You can pretend that isn’t the narrative and you personally may not agree with that but by and large the left defends those positions.

Sorry, substituting Trumptard, Trumper, Trumpism, Trumplican, etc. instead of rightist doesn’t buy you any moral high ground. So yes you guys do lump those you disagree with together. I would say you don’t use rightist because it infers correct and that would be anathema to a leftist. It also doesn’t have the same ring to it.

It’s not my focus that’s the issue, it’s the leftists focus on supposed guilt for crimes people living now never committed. Simply put I don’t care what the Romans did to my ancestors. It is far removed from my experience other than as history. Something to study and understand yet I seek no reparations from Italy.

You wish to assume the guilt of things beyond your control. I don’t feel the same compunction. What could you have done to change the Iraq war? Why is what America does assigned to only white people? Aren’t we a nation of immigrants. Why wouldn’t all skin colors and races be guilty?

Demanding whites, especially males, need to atone for their white male privilege makes it tribal. People get defensive when you attack them and they aren’t full of self hate. You may be an exception but white is a tribal line, just as Black, Asian, and Latino. Ask any prisoner in a correctional facility. Attacking people simply for their skin color is racist period, full stop. You can try and rationalize it being ok, but it is racist It doesn’t matter what color the victims are.

Fair point on the Trump thing. A lot of that though is (I think) push back against stuff like Libtard. Not that that is an excuse. I don't want to lower the bar just because someone else does.

I will admit I make fun of Qanon people though. They are like flat earthers - they get what they get.

What could I have done to stop the Iraq war? As the right is fond of saying: love it or leave it. I could have protested and made large efforts to stop it. I didn't. I was young at the time. But there is tacit consent. I stayed, I continued to pay my taxes, I am as responsible as anyone else. It doesn't bog me down but it also is something I refuse to avoid. The next time somebody starts beating the drums of war, I expect to be a loud dissenter.

Who said its only assigned to white people. Let me try this another way.

If I saw everyone reacting the same about black people getting shot as they would white people, I would be a lot more inclined to take you at your word.

But where was NRA when Philando Castille was shot? Licensed gunowner with a concealed carry, did everything right - where were they? Where were all of my 2A folks at? Not a f&**ing whisper.

There is clearly a line in the sand where black people are treated differently. Where there is an expectation of guilt. Pretend you don't see it, and maybe you don't. But I do. A lot of us do. There are varying degrees of subtlety, but it is there.

So, while it may not be fair, as the views may be the ones on the extreme: the people who still insist that this isn't a thing are also the people who think climate change isn't a thing, COVID is a hoax, etc. The ability to assess sources and to accept new data is lacking. I know conservatives for whom that isn't true, but they don't seem to want to speak up.

Progressive is the opposite of Conservative. In point of fact, you can be right or left leaning in either of those groups . . . it's just that the American right wing has staked out anti-progress as their thing of late.

I would call it anti communist or anti destruction.

Amen.