It's all Relative?

This kind of follows along those lines....
https://youtu.be/yrcQ_PTkVD4
"If there is no God, murder isn't wrong"

That is wrong

That's your perception of Christianity, but that's not the reality.

Yes, for the past, preseent, and future sins. However, that does not mean we would not ever be punished. If we sin in unrepentance, we will eventually get chatized by the Lord (Hebrews 12:6) which could include death.

Good to meet another Christian. :)

Here's some perception for you: The knowlege of good and evil was gifted unto humanity by the Serpent God. The other God got angry, kicked them all out of Eden, and he has ruled the world ever since, and that reign hasn't been exactly a pleasant one.

Since you acknowledge what sin is, you will be judged on the basis of you being aware of what right and wrong is.
"You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."
If you want some context to better understand the entire explanation, here is the link:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+6:15-23

Are you talking about Romans 6:15-23, or some other passage. If it is a different one, which one is it?

My response was in regards to salvation, then continuing to sin, then asking for salvation again. Knowing right from wrong and continuing to do what is known (to you) as being wrong, will not be judged the same as being made aware of what is wrong and choosing not to do wrong. That is why I put a link to the entire passage instead of just a quote, for contextual support.

Hi Octavia.

Between the two viewpoints, the notion of what we call, "Eternal Security", does not allow a license to sin, because if one truly believes and surrenders to Christ, s/he will not sin so liberally. After all, do you really love your parents because they have a gun to your head? Or do you love them, because they loved you, and proved it?

Christians obey the Lord because they loved Him, and tht form of obedience is the most honest and pure form. That is far better than the notion that God does not exist. Without God, you really do not have a concrete and credible means to establish why the deed is right or wrong, good or evil.

Indeed,the only absolute truth you have is the laws of nature, which is apathetic to your needs and feelings. Come the next mutation, the next asteroid, the next virus, or next invasion, you will be gone. The memory of you, regardless of how well remembered you are, will vanish as if you had never happened.

This all the more provides one a greater incentive to live riotously, to act on every impulse, and do whatever one wishes, however heinous it may be, because ... "YOLO".

But with God, there is "Hell to pay for."

PS. While you do not believe it, we Christians believe that when we become saved, we've become "New Creatures" (2 Cor. 5:17), meaning that we've received a new nature. Before, we have a mind to only rebel, but after, we have a reverse of (Romans 8:6-7). And though we will sin, we will not live in sin as we've once had (1 John 3:6-9).

YOU
"Without God, you really do not have a concrete and credible means to establish why the deed is right or wrong, good or evil."
Please explain

ME
Let's take rape for example. If you've spotted one about to rape a woman, how can you tell him not to? We both know it is wrong, but what if he has a worldview that not only permitted him to do so, but it's part of his culture?

Your words have no authority beyond your humanistic opinion. It is mere construct when you don't have an absolute and eternal authority whose nature is good and unchanging.

YOU
"the laws of nature...(are) apathetic to your needs and feelings."
Yes. So what?

How then can you establish what is right and what is wrong? Common sense? What is so today, was not so then. So what then can Common Sense be in the future? It could be the return to Medieval ways, as Orwell predicted that warfare can change back to using sticks and stones.

YOU
"Come the next mutation, the next asteroid, the next virus, or next invasion, you will be gone."
"The memory of you, regardless of how well remembered you are, will vanish as if you had never happened."
Yes. So what?

ME
Wouldn't it be nice then, if we have a God who remembers, protects, preserves, amd uphold order?

YOU
You aren't showing evidence that this is false. You're just implying that if it's true, that's depressing. So what if it's depressing? If it's true, it's true.

ME
Of course not, we're talking about what determines right and wrong apart from God, but I'm also appealing to your senses.

"This all the more provides one a greater incentive to live riotously, to act on every impulse, and do whatever one wishes, however heinous it may be, because ... "YOLO"."

YOU
That's strange, because I don't believe in God, and I see it exactly opposite. If this life is the only one I have, I don't want to waste it doing stupid and reckless things. I want to make the most of it and cherish each moment.

ME
Not many are like you. That's the problem, and who are you to tell them they're wrong?

YOU
Hell has not been demonstrated to exist, therefore I have no reason to believe it does.

ME
You mean no evidence of Hell? It is a fallacy to assume non existence of, because one doesn't know if it exist or not. Lack of evidence doesn't automatically mean non existence either.

"Not everyone agrees 100% on what is moral and immoral, but most humans generally agree that things that hurt someone unnecessarily are immoral and bad, and things that help or benefit someone are moral and good. ...."

I agree, unless an ideology or culture is involved. While you would disagree with the following, I believe this is so because we have a God-given conscience (Romans 2:14-16). Without God, we would not have the same sense of right and wrong, be as any organism in the animal kingdom.

"You mean like some modern Islamic cultures, or ancient Israel in the Bible? Yeah, I can still say it's wrong for the reason I explained above. And I can say they're wrong for allowing it."

Yes, just like Pol Pot (2 mil), Stalin (20 mil.), and Mao Zedong (1 mil.)? Who is to say they're wrong, and you're right? Like it or not, are a product of our environment. If we're capable of killing, we're thus capable of doing far more; & if we're raised to hate to such a level, we will act on that hatred.

"And the Bible has no authority beyond what it says. Besides, when society as a whole tends to agree with me, that does carry authority."

Unless... it is true.

"Except you haven't demonstrated that "an absolute and eternal authority whose nature is good and unchanging" even exists in the first place."

That evidence, however small it seemed to you, is our God-given conscience. the fact that we're far more advanced than animals also proved so (there is no "Missing link" between Apes and Humans).

"A lot of things would be nice. It would be nice if I won $100 million in the lottery. But nice doesn't mean real. If you find the idea of a god nice, that's one thing. But that doesn't mean that god actually exists."

You're right; I've done that for a reason which I'll explain later.

"Yes, many are like me. Do you see most atheists running around doing whatever they feel like because they think there's no afterlife? I sure don't."

Go to the beach, college campuses, bars, etc. They don't call themselves Atheists, they're not as Enlightened as you are, but they don't believe in God all the same.

That is where other evidences enter in. The thing is, the evidence given may not be as plentiful as you'd like, ones, that you count as evidence, or that it would make sense to you.

If God does exist, why doesn't He give what is sufficient to you? It is because if you're truly open, then it'll be enough for you. But if you are proud sort, wants God on your terms, or never open in the end, it will never be enouigh for you (1 Corinthians 1:22-25, 27).

God can give you 10 thousand proofs, but you will never come willingly (Romans 8:6-7).

"Without God, we would not have the same sense of right and wrong"
What's your evidence for that?

Just look at the animal kingdom. For example, predatory animals such as the alpha male lion would kill any lion cub to keep his dominance. Crocodiles do the same but not for the reason of dominance. The prey, like the Wildebeast does not have that level of cruelty, but are too afriad to rescue their own young without overwhelming numbers.

"I can say they're wrong for the reasons I already mentioned. What those people did was very harmful to countless people."

But they believed that they're doing the right thing. Without source of absolute truth, what they've done, while obviously harmful, can ultimately be neither be right or wrong. Thanos, killing half of the population, has an actual historical precedence.

When the Black Plague hit Europe, nearly half of the population have died, but it was a major contributing favor in the rise of Europe that lasted to this day, starting with the Renniassance. .Was it harmful? Clearly. But Europe became prosperous & powerful as a result, whereas before, they've never been a powerful and influential people, save only the Greeks & the Romans. They've also been constant victims of eastern nomadic peoples such as the Turkic, Hunnic, and the Mongols. They would've also experienced the fate given to Africans with the eastern & African empires such as the Philistines, the Persians, the Egyptians,

Thus, Machiavellian quote "The end justifies the means" can be seen as a moral act in itself.

"Yes, and that goes for everyone, including Christians."

While I agree, that;'s besides the point.

"I'm not convinced it has been demonstrated to be trueI have a conscience. Can you prove it came from God?"

We have yet to memory, discussed the inspiration of scripture, but I hope to do so, soon. If the Bible is inspired, then there is your evidence. But are you asking me to provide physical evidnece?

"Humans are apes, and yes, there are many organisms between modern humans and our ancestor species."

Which are often found in fragments, can be mistaken as an actual homosapien when the creature had an arthritis, or a total hoax, such a the Pitdown Man.

Who doesn't believe in god? People at bars and beaches? How do you know this? Or are you just assuming they must be atheists because they party and drink?

I didn't say all of them are, but you can definitely find people (if you look hard enough) who live as if God never existed. so they pour sleeping sedatives into women's drinks, take advantage of women who've passed out, having one-night stands, get into sexual orgies (in motels), pimps who sell drugs & underaged children, etc. they have no fear of the eternal consequences of their decisions, activities, etc.

Well, they were never truly Atheists, you could say, and there are Christians who do the same, but you're missing the point. W/out God there is no fear of consequences outside the law of the land. You can kill a thousand people, but in the end, the only think that awaits you is annihiliation. You might be arrested and punished, but after death, nothing at all. You simply no longer exist but your remains.

"Evidence like what? I'm still waiting for someone to provide good evidence that Hell exists, and I've never seen it."

It seemed to be that you're asking me to prove that I'm not a robot without television, or flying to your location. Of course, you can say that I proved it by showing my intelligence but that's besides the point. If the spirit and the spirit world is invisible and non physical by nature, then you're asking me to prove the impossible, and I've had Atheists ask me such questions, over and over again, to get a cheap win

That's ultimately God's fault, then. If he exists and is all-knowing, that means he knows exactly what evidence would convince me, and he hasn't made it available to me.

That is something you have to ask yourself. The demands of proof you've made, on Hell for example and conscience provided by God, is an indicator of how hard your heart is in your refusal to believe. Why? You already know that spirits and cannot be seen or touched (unlkess they reveal themselves of course) and you'e asking me to prove Hell exists? You're basically tellling me to show you God by having Him appear before you, and from my experience those who've asked such quesitons were never open to begin with.

Do you really want to know God exist?

"You're making a fallacious argument. You're saying I'll be convinced by the evidence *if* I'm open. And if I'm not convinced, it means I wasn't open. You're making a Morton's Fork fallacy. Anyone who is convinced, you'll say was open. And anyone who isn't convinced, you'll say wasn't open. Maybe I'm open but the evidence you provide just isn't compelling. That's also an option."

That kind of open-mindedness or truly seeking, I meant, is not the same as opening your head so that your brain falls out. Nor am I expecting to be so seeking that you would do anything tro believe.in a frenzied matter. I'm telling you that if your'e truly seeking, you would open your mind to where you would not judge a matter strictly to what makes sense to you (Isaiah 55:8-9).. Our standards of judgment can as varied as feelings; one person's standard can be strictly found in logic, while another is "Seeing is Believing".

With the demands you've been making, you call into the middle.