If there is no true right and wrong, if the end justifies the means, then these mass shootings are exactly what you wanted.

this is coming from the person who named himself after a pokemon move that's strong, but it leaves the user confused

I have no idea what you just said. Lol

I don't want to speak for anybody else, including the OP. I think that while there have been atrocities by religious officiants of many religions, the decline of regular attendance of religious ceremonies and events has resulted in the loss of an important protective factor is our society. If nothing else, it served as regular moral instruction, not in teaching a particular religion's tenets, but as a clear understanding of the existence of right and wrong and some general examples. Alone this might not result in mass shootings, but together with the decline of other protective factors and the increase in risk factors, I think that the result is a society in which these events are more probable.

No, but I don't think knoweledge of right and wrong is innate. Without religion, where does moral education come from? Overworked parents? Willingly spending an hour a week listening to someone reminding everyone about the Golden Rule or whatever had a protective effect on our society. In my unscientific, unproven opinion.

Game theorists would love it if we behaved according to our best interest, but we often do not. Capitalism and certainly the current political environment seem more about "what's in my best interest" rather "our" best interest. What you term innate morality seems to me to be more related to a fear of not being accepted by the group. I think that can drive the adoption of moral behavior but I don't it as itself being moral behavior.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying we are all a bunch of heathens who need go back to getting our "church learnin' on Sundy." I'm not pushing particular religion or belief. I'm noting that regular participation created one protective factor for society as a whole, and that the decline of this practice, combined with other factors over time has brought to a place where shootings are more frequent. I'm not saying that we should go back to those times. It does seem that what we have attempted to replace religious practice with is not as effective, and that may be a part of the problem.

The problem is that society and the people around us gravitate towards what is popular rather than moral or ethical. The structure of our society was based on ideas pulled from Jewish and Christian traditions. The 10 commandments, the family as the basic unit of government, the idea that you don’t regulate something nationally that can be done at the state, local, or family level. Capitalism is a natural progression of this. Capitalism is really just the idea that two people should be able to enter into an agreement without interference from a third party.

The problem with a secular society choosing morality is that it is corrupted from many directions. Some fall to the fallacy of pure logic, like the bioethics crowd. They have missed the basic truth that it is wrong to commit murder. The hedonists Argue that there is no true right and wrong.

A religious basis is not immune by any stretch. I don’t remember manifest destiny in the Bible, but we kicked the Indians out anyways. Some hardcore Christians hate gay people. Or black people. Or white people. Etc. these are all failures to follow the principles of the Bible. But a religious base gives us a moral compass to steer back to when we do. “Hey, maybe slavery isn’t the best idea”. “Hey, maybe we should be more tolerant of the Irish, or the Germans, the Chinese, etc, etc”. A secular basis for morality doesn’t provide that kind of moral compass.

Like in the Baptist Church shooting in Sutherland Texas?

Charlston, South Carolina?
Dylan Roof attended mass and Bible study and was on a first name basis with the very people he shot, did he miss a vital sermon?

So a lack of Church culture is at fault, but not gun culture in a general culture of self absorbed spoiled kids pissed off because no one wants to be friends with their spiteful dorky asses?

If they were lacking in regular moral instruction and a clear understanding of the existence of right and wrong, then there isn't much church attendence can help. These weren't illiterates from an isolated cave in the hills. There are laws, and we are drowned in regular moral instruction and the understanding of right and wrong from Sesame Street to Fallout4. This is America, not Afganistan. If they are they that devoid, there's not a dang thing the Gods themselves can do to stop these sick - wait for it - gun enthusiasts from acting out.

Remember I'm not saying that everyone needs Jesus. The decline of religious practice is in my opinion _one_ factor. I'm pretty sure that psychotic doofus Roof didn't discuss his race hate with his church buddies. There are other factors. BTW, thank you for you comment. You've helped me to think more critically and refine my view somewhat

I do not think that we have devloped a society where gun violence is more frequent overnight. The decline of religious participation has, over time, in combination with other factors lead to the development of a society random violence is more likely to occur. IMO.

Laws and morals are not the same thing.

I think there is a qualitative difference between Sesame Street and a synagogue. Though certainly when I was a kid our church had it's share of Bert n Ernie's! It may have to do with the authoritative nature of religious teachings. Turn on the news. There are hundreds, and over a year thousands of people yelling morals at us, but none with the authority to prevent us from ignoring them as noise.

Yes, laws are based on morals. Laws define what the prescribed behaviors are, and what the penalties are for transgression. Morals are the internalization of the law, and address the intent of behavior and much as the actual behavior. I know that's just another way of saying "knowing right from wrong," but I think that morals involve an internal 'dialogue' or process whereas are enacted from outside. If I break a law, I have to pay the consequences (a fine or jail time, usu.), and I might feel guilty or that the law is foolish and wrong. If I violate morals which I have internalized, I may feel ashamed or that I have done something that I and those important to me consider 'wrong.'

As for authority, I recall going to church as a child because my parent made me. My mother made me go even if she did not. I didn't about this at the time, but my mother's authority and my desire for her approval likely made me more open to God's authority. Even though I rarely go to church and do not live the faith that I was raised in, it gave me a basis for moral behavior that I might not have otherwise had.

Whereas *laws* are enacted....Phew! Wordy SOB, aren't I?

Your fallacy is that you just picked out the examples you liked. No society is perfect. By to imply that Christianity is the reason they did what they did is ridiculous on its face.

Liked? No, pal, there isn't a single thing to like about them.

People are dead - innocent people, and I don't give a flying shit about how what religious pendant they have hanging round their necks might harsh your selective cheerleader sqaud yapping mood.

Stop lying and get real with the facts, then you won't have to cry when someone else does it for you.

*in* our society.