kermit window

I don't think the right were chanting to comply during Trump's term. Like... When?

Liberals have a difficult time discerning between supporting a leader who is generally in alignment with what they already believe, and being totally dependent on someone else to tell them what to think. What other possible reason could they have for supporting a lying degenerate do-nothing-for-50-years like Biden, vs Trump, who delivered some of the best results this country has seen in all of its history?

But I suppose we should admire their commitment to their insane position- they are stuck dealing with Bidenflation with the rest of us, and Biden has fallen short on a lot of the freebies he promised them during the campaign.

I don't see how their statement dictates knowing right from wrong. Nor does it elude to killing anyone... Not following here ?

I think you mean he used to advocate for those... The Old Testament is like you say. God had rules and if you broke them - there was punishment.

But it's a precursor to Jesus' arrival - to fulfill the law. God made tons of rules and had punishments. In his Godliness - God came up with a different measure, which was sending himself to fulfill a law we couldn't fulfill.

The New Testament doesn't have the angels smiting cities, floods destroying places, turning people into salt etc. But rather speaks to a belief in Jesus that He did what He did for everyone.

Personally - I'm not a popular Christian because I read the Bible very differently than others. Most Christians think it's an exclusive club where only Christians go to Heaven - others burn in Hell. When I read that book - it leads me to believe that everyone will believe (every knee will bow and tongue confess He is the Lord). If every knee will bow (every being all inclusive) who is left not believing?

I think the message was meant to show us that no matter what we do or say - God loves us all and will take what's His into His Kingdom. If every knee bows -- we all inherit his Kingdom.

Octardia makes a habit of putting words in my mouth, if only by taking what I say to extremes I would not. He/she/it struggles with hatred of God, in spite of saying that God does not exist.

I believe what you said about the OT, and the Law, and Christ's fulfillment of it are accurate, but when you broke into universalism, that is antithetical to what Christ Himself told us.

"If every knee will bow (every being all inclusive) who is left not believing?"

Some will bow and confess in joy, other will do so because God is worthy, but they will not do so loving God. Jesus made it crystal clear- the majority of all who will have lived will end up in Hell; He speaks more on the subject of Hell than He does Heaven.

We have a number of instances described in the Bible where people fall on their faces when faced with the presence of God. I believe this is one of the reasons why God does not routinely offer Himself up on display- people will honor Him, but do so unwillingly, and we know that God desires worshipers who will worship Him in spirit and in truth.

God has created a life where we can choose to reject Him, ignoring all the evidence He that He exists, using every excuse mankind can come up with to do so. We have one life to live, then after that, the judgment. There are multitudes just like Octardia here who would HATE being with God for all of eternity. They hate His holiness, His righteousness, everything about Him. This is serious business, as the cross proves.

God describes salvation as a free gift in Ephesians 2. Those who reject that gift while in their mortal bodies will not have an opportunity to change their minds on Judgment Day, nor will they want to. They may not desire to perish in Hell, but neither do they want to live with God.

If we cannot believe God when it comes to where the lost end up, how can we believe Him when it comes to how we escape the wrath of God?

Octavia is one of the more moderate liberals here - and one of my img_flip friends... No need to name call bruh 😉😬

Agreed.

Being pro baby murder is not "moderate." Octardia Malady is left-wing

Did you know there are Republicans that support abortion laws too? It's a real thing. Because Republican and Christian aren't exclusively mutual or interchangable terms.

"Did you know there are Republicans that support abortion laws too? It's a real thing. Because Republican and Christian aren't exclusively mutual or interchangable terms."

All of this is true, but it forgets something greater than the individual- only one Party has included the intent to support the murder of unborn children in its National Party Platform. Only one- along with all sorts of other antichrist agenda items that stand completely opposed to the Law of Christ.

I have long contended that we must first neuter the Democrat Party, and then weed out the RINOs within the Republican Party. Given human nature, this will never be a task that can be completed, but we must stand against this evil. Abortion is the modern day version of sacrificing children in the fire to Molech.

The great thing about what I believe of it - is if I'm right, everyone gets to go home and be their best self. There wouldn't be arguments of why some people are getting in to Heaven or anything - just celebration.

If you're right - I'm still there in Heaven - just not seeing as many folks there.

"Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear."
Ephesias 4:29...Do you believe this as well, cause it doesn't appear that you really do.

"Do you believe this as well, cause it doesn't appear that you really do."

You'll need to be a little more specific, please.

"If we cannot believe God when it comes to where the lost end up, how can we believe Him when it comes to how we escape the wrath of God?" Do you believe him when he says to speak in a way that edifies and doesn't tear down?

I'm not throwing religious platitude up at people, just calling out a little bit of disingenuous talk. When you start your comment to OM, you began by insulting him. Then, it causual conversation just continue with the name-calling. How does that edify someone? It doesn't serve anyone's religious argument when they are arguing that someone should believe such and such while hurling insults at them simultaneously. Cards on the table...I'm pretty damned bad at it as well..., but then again, I refrain from getting too religious on this site.

No doubt, poor choice on my part, but par for the course when engaging in conversation with OM. Still, you are right in pointing out that I need to rise above the tit-for-tat.

I recall what Christ himself said when asked about Hell. "Should we fear Hell?" Christ: you shouldn't fear Hell, but rather fear the one who has the power to burn both body and soul in Hell."

Christ was always very particular with His words - every time. Every word - meaningful. He didn't say "..fear the one who DOES burn body and soul in Hell". He specifically stated who has the Power to.

When you look at every interaction between God and Man or Jesus and Man - every single story speaks to one thing: Believe MMe. Confess that I am who I say I am.

So when Christ says that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess... That he will separate those that belong to him from those that don't... And Everyone belongs to him... It tells me you can have a great life here, living as a Christian and be with God in the next phase of existence. But to me it also states that you can be an idiot and get it wrong - and that your knee will bow and your tongue will confess same as mine did already.

To me - it's more loving to include everyone than not. God is Love personified.

But like I said - I have unpopular Christian beliefs. However, my pastor who is also my literal biological brother? When I came to this conclusion... Told me he thinks the same thing and has for a long time. He literally earned a degree on the topic soooo.

Hopefully, this is a debate between brothers.

"Christ was always very particular with His words - every time. Every word - meaningful."

Indeed.

"I recall what Christ himself said when asked about Hell. "Should we fear Hell?" Christ: you shouldn't fear Hell, but rather fear the one who has the power to burn both body and soul in Hell.""

This is incorrect- it is not what the text says. Jesus was explaining that we should fear God rightly, not man. If you truly believe that His words are meaningful, how is it that you have this so wrong? I am not judging your motives- I do not know them, but you have essentially twisted this text 180 degrees backwards. And indeed, He does have the power to destroy both body and soul in Hell, and He tells us frequently that this will tragically happen.

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

"When you look at every interaction between God and Man or Jesus and Man - every single story speaks to one thing: Believe MMe. Confess that I am who I say I am."

This would include the overall message of the Old Testament as well- believe God, and it will be counted as righteousness, as in Abraham's case. But over and over and over again, God explains what the consequences are when we do not follow Him.

Matthew 25
41 “Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
-
Then, after explaining how the lost did not follow Christ and His commands, there is this:

46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

"If you're right - I'm still there in Heaven - just not seeing as many folks there."

So long as you are not believing in a false gospel, this could well be the case. I have no idea if you are born again/saved, or not, but it breaks my heart to hear such a perversion of the Gospel. If everyone is saved as you suggest, what is the point of even having a Gospel to spread at all? We can all just show up at the end, God waves His hand, and everyone is in. You cannot read very far into the Scriptures before your run into passages which teach just the opposite of what you are saying.

"To me - it's more loving to include everyone than not. God is Love personified."

And God is also Justice personified.

I wasn't saying they asked him should we fear Hell, I'm saying what he specifically said about Hell. In context to the question of should we fear Hell...

So, If every knee bows and every tongue confesses - every knee and tongue is on the right. What or Who is left, on the left? Having no one on the left to send to Hell doesn't mean the action wouldn't be there. So my idea on this is still sound for that.

Definitely saved - definitely Christian here, definitely brother :)

When you look at the Bible - it is full of God giving us everything we believe to be true. Adam & Eve? Believed he would punish them for disobeying... So He did. Humanity at the time thought it would die for disobeying him. So he kicked them out of Eden and made them toil the earth and give birthing pains etc. What was that big mess up? Eating from the Tree of Knowledge (of Good and Evil).

Knowledge of Good and Evil is Godly stuff, not human stuff. We weren't meant to understand good and evil - because it's passed our brains capacity to understand. Man ultimately messes up "good" and "evil" - often speaking of one of them and doing the other. Thinking their petty theft is better than murder or swearing.

Why do you think we have various degrees of punishments for crimes - but God views Sin on the same level regardless of the Sin? It's because we don't quite understand evil as well as humanity would have us believe we do. Which also means we don't understand good as well as we think we do.

If you eat from that tree - you'll surely die. At this critical moment in humanity - God knew what we would do, and what He would have to do - to provide us that which we thought would happen. He gave us everything - we rejected it, so He gave us what we thought would happen.

Then fast forward and we still don't have it right (that He just wants us to believe Him and believe in Him) - so He gives us Commandments. We begged for rules, by our actions that were destroying humanity - then we couldn't get that right.

Eventually Jesus shows up and fulfills the Law of Death for Sin. It's all a story pointing to the same thing... Confess that I am the Lord, so we can be together - because ultimately that's what God wants: Communion with His creations. I believe in a Hell, I believe there are souls there - but I personally think sending souls to Hell ended with Jesus' proclamation that "it is finished".

"So is casting judgements reserved for the Lord ;) "

That depends on which type of judging you are speaking of. In the eternal sense, only God is able to be the Judge for a soul. But in the immediate sense-

1 Corinthians 2:15
The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.

Also judge not lest ye be judged. Since all fall short of the glory of the Lord, it means we should guide gently instead of judge.

This is an excellent explanation of what the Gospel is, and while I do not recall Washer dealing with Hell, I hope it can be helpful to you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91HuDrvKsy8&t=1440s

I'll check it out - thank you :)

"I can say this though. If God could find value in me, find reason to lift me out of my toil - out of my ignorance... If He will stand up for me. When I meet him - I'd plead a case for the ignorant."

I love your love for the lost, and I share it. But neither of us gets to plead anyone else's case for them- that is Christ's job, and His alone. Paul said much the same, but note that he indicates that he could not do it:

Romans 9:1-3
I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart.
For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh.
-

btw- No one could ultimately want that who knows the love of God- Paul is speaking in genuine anguish over the fact that his fellow Jews will end up in Hell. This is AFTER the cross, indicating that Paul does not believe in universalism.

"Those that knew not what they did. And spare their souls for mine. That's what Christ did for me. The least I can do is do that for someone else when I get there."

Psalm 49:7-9
Truly no man can ransom another,
or give to God the price of his life,
For the ransom of their life is costly
and can never suffice,
that he should live on forever
and never see the pit.

"Also judge not lest ye be judged. Since all fall short of the glory of the Lord, it means we should guide gently instead of judge."

We are *commanded* to make right judgments, and we are to proclaim the whole Word of God, not just the "easy" parts. If we are faithful to our mission, we will stink on the noses of those who choose to remain lost.

2 Corinthians 2
15 For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing;
16 To one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life.
Who is sufficient for these things?
17 For we are not, like so many, peddlers of God's word, but as men of sincerity, as commissioned by God, in the sight of God we speak in Christ.

"There are those that need strict attempts to follow the straight and narrow. But it's an impossible task. Our very legs make it impossible to walk a straight line indefinitely. There are those oblivious - that never get to know. Then there are those that see a message of Love that has no limitations - and spells out that all will accept it. There is wisdom, knowledge, and passion."

Accepting Christ as Savior, repenting of sin, does not suddenly make us perfect in our walk. But it is necessary to repent. Jesus said, "Unless you repent, you will likewise perish." He did not point to those who would perish, forever in Hell, unless He meant it. Moreover, much was written AFTER the cross and after His earthly ministry- NEVER did the message of the need for repentance change in the New Testament after the Gospels were written.

Especially in the prophetic book of Revelation, we see what happens, and when it happens, that those alive who reject Christ in this life will end up in Hell. You have told me that should you be wrong on this subject, you will still be in Heaven, just with fewer people than you expected there with you. Instead of taking that approach, how about taking the approach of preaching the Word as written. If I am wrong, then nothing changes at all- everyone ends up in Heaven regardless.

One of us is very wrong when it comes to this exceedingly important doctrine. While being in agreement with the majority is no guarantee of anything, much depends on the group we are talking about. You are standing against many of the greatest preachers and teachers that have been gifted by God, including some of our contemporaries like John MacArthur, RC Sproul & Billy Graham (now both deceased), and Paul Washer. God very much cares about how we handle His Word- this is of great importance.

"I'd wager a passionate loving God can forgive much more than you or I could ever imagine."

No, we cannot understand the depths of His grace and mercy, but we see it in the cross of Christ. There are some things that are beyond us, but God has made many, many things clear. (cf. Deuteronomy 29:29)

Mark Twain is alleged to have said the following: "It ain't those parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand."

I do not believe that you getting this wrong will result in a single person being misled into ending up in Hell, otherwise they would have an excuse (cf. Romans 1:20). This is then strictly for your sake.

I can say this though. If God could find value in me, find reason to lift me out of my toil - out of my ignorance... If He will stand up for me. When I meet him - I'd plead a case for the ignorant.

Those that knew not what they did. And spare their souls for mine. That's what Christ did for me. The least I can do is do that for someone else when I get there.

"Why do you think we have various degrees of punishments for crimes - but God views Sin on the same level regardless of the Sin? It's because we don't quite understand evil as well as humanity would have us believe we do. Which also means we don't understand good as well as we think we do."

Just as there are varying "levels" of rewards based on our works in Christ, so too there is good reason to believe that those in Hell will experience differing degrees of punishment.

"Eventually Jesus shows up and fulfills the Law of Death for Sin. It's all a story pointing to the same thing... Confess that I am the Lord, so we can be together - because ultimately that's what God wants: Communion with His creations. I believe in a Hell, I believe there are souls there - but I personally think sending souls to Hell ended with Jesus' proclamation that "it is finished"."

There was nothing "eventual" about it- God sent His Son at just the right time at just the right place to fulfill His plan. I cannot think of a single reason based on Scripture to believe that once Jesus finished His work here on Earth that suddenly everyone, regardless of repentance, would be saved.

In reality, it is the reverse of what we know when it comes to who was saved prior to the cross. For those who placed their faith in God, they remained outside of Heaven waiting for that work to be completed. Sometimes called Upper Sheol, it is the Paradise Jesus referenced while speaking to the repentant thief next to Him, also on a cross. You will note that He did not tell them both that they would be with Him in Paradise, though you can read anything into it if you use a bad method of hermeneutics.

Although I believe that the 5 Point Calvinists get it wrong, saying that Jesus only died for the "predestined", in a sense I have to concede that this is what it ends up being. Nonetheless, I believe that they get it tragically wrong apart from the pragmatics. It says He died for the sins of the whole world, meaning every human being, but He also knew that the majority would not believe, and thus would reject His free gift of salvation.

Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter by the Narrow Gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it ***are many***.
For the Gate is narrow and the Way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
-

I capitalize Narrow Gate because Jesus is that Gate, that Door, through which we must enter.

We are both well versed and I admire your dedication and knowledge. I know Jesus is in Heaven rooting us both on right now.

I could go on and on pointing you to the myriad of passages that show, both in Jesus' direct words as well as His words spoken through His apostles and prophets, that after the cross people must continue to repent and be born again BEFORE they leave this life. It is appointed unto each of us to die once, then immediately face judgment. That judgment is in essence a temporary one based on the ultimate Day of Judgment, and then that soul resides in Lower Sheol, a place of torment based on what Jesus told us in Luke 16:19-31

That passage ends this way:

And he [the rich man] said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ He [Abraham] said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”
-
In other words, even when faced with the clear resurrection of Jesus, if a person will not have faith in what God has said in the Old Testament, and ultimately the entire Word of God, they will not have a saving faith. This flies in the face of your concept that everyone in the end will be saved because they confess that Jesus is Lord.

One final thought (for now).

Will there be ANYONE in Heaven with God who does NOT love Him? The answer is most assuredly "no". In your description of who gets into Heaven, God would then be forcing all of those God haters to love Him, against their will.

God will not do that. He could have created a bunch of robots who genuinely love Him, as far as they know, but God would know that such a love was not freely chosen. I believe that EVERY human being has the opportunity to love God of their own free will, but the sad truth is that the majority will not. God made every provision for them to be forever with Him, and they still rejected Him. God gives each person the perfect circumstances, tailored to their own personality, in which they can freely choose to live (cf. Acts 17:26-27), or to mock Him and die.

The only reason I have gone to such lengths to try and help you with this is because a true believer, indwelt with God the Holy Spirit, should have a reverence and a love for His Word. To a degree, this is something we must work with God to develop. So, for a much as I love His Word, I equally despise when it is twisted, regardless of the motive. I realize you have no ill intent, which is why I am attempting to be helpful- you seem to have a genuine love for God, and a calm spirit. May God bless this conversatio

There are those that need strict attempts to follow the straight and narrow. But it's an impossible task. Our very legs make it impossible to walk a straight line indefinitely. There are those oblivious - that never get to know. Then there are those that see a message of Love that has no limitations - and spells out that all will accept it. There is wisdom, knowledge, and passion.

I'd wager a passionate loving God can forgive much more than you or I could ever imagine.

"But like I said - I have unpopular Christian beliefs. However, my pastor who is also my literal biological brother? When I came to this conclusion... Told me he thinks the same thing and has for a long time. He literally earned a degree on the topic soooo."

That he has a degree is not relevant, especially given all of those who have even greater degrees who would disagree with this spin on the Gospel.

Everyone knows John 3:16, but they need to read onward:

John 3:17-18
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world,
but in order that the world might be saved through Him.

Whoever believes in Him is not condemned,
but whoever does not believe ***is condemned already***,
because he has not believed in the Name of the only Son of God.
-

There is no 'second chance' after death- how we leave this world is how we remain:

Hebrews 9:27
And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

Right. Condemned - then, when their knee has bowed and tongue confessed... Is potentially not condemned further. Not some of the knees will bow - every. Not some of the tongues shall confess...every.

Confession is part of salvation. For some it happens here. For others - it happens there. What's more loving - condemning your creations? Or accepting them?

I will have to return to this at a later date- tomorrow is the day we bury my dad.

I recommend again that you watch that video. Universalism is a terrible heresy.

So is casting judgements reserved for the Lord ;)

1. I'll give you that because Cailuo exists

2. It's hope that things could be different

3. Your idol for example is money. It needs your attention or you can't do anything without it since everything costs money

4. He made free will so we aren't robots

5. It's either trial or they are being evil

6. It's 5 and 3 again more or less so

7. Well then it's clearly not their fault but most people probably have, however it's never too late until you die to change

SMHID!!!

His love doesn't change...

SMHID!!!

I mean, you tell everyone - a sin, God can't forgive. Can you? No. Nor can I or anyone else in this world or universe. Because man cannot put a limitation on God. Never could and never will.

"I mean, you tell everyone - a sin, God can't forgive. Can you? No. Nor can I or anyone else in this world or universe. Because man cannot put a limitation on God. Never could and never will."

The only one who can put a restriction on God, is God Himself.

1 John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death.
There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.
-

The "sin that leads to death" can only mean one thing- failing to repent and believe (cf. Romans 10). All sin leads to death, but all sin can be forgiven, except for one. Think about it this way- God sent His Son to live the perfect life we could not live, thus fulfilling the Law, and then He gave His life to pay for our sins. Called 'double imputation', and found in 2 Corinthians 5:21, this is the process of how we end up on the narrow path. Being on that path does not mean we will not stagger, and sometimes step too close to the edge, but we are put on that path by grace, through faith- it is not the same thing as being perfect.

btw- you have said that you believe there are souls in Hell. Your entire premise here breaks down, however, when you realize that all of those souls are included in that passage too- they will also bow the knee, and confess that Jesus is Lord. Then that which is called Death, all of the lost, shall be cast into the Lake of Fire, the final resting place for those who have rejected Christ.

The closest thing to something resembling universalism is found in those passages where God tells us that "all" of Israel will be saved. Once you see them all connected, you realize that He is speaking of all of Israel living at the time of His Second Coming. Prior to that moment, however, most will be killed during the Tribulation. While there is no precise way of knowing, some estimate that less than one billion people will be left when Christ sets foot in Jerusalem. Regardless of the number, it will be those Jews who God brought through the Tribulation that will all be saved.

Also - thank you for clarifying, I was like uhhhhhhhh what? Didn't get where you were coming from

SMHID!!!!

:0)

But when were the Republicans or Trump making "mandates" - where you have to comply or else? There were definitely Democrats saying resist in some fashion or another during Trump. Those same Democrats are now screaming to comply.

Where was Trump or Republicans making rules everyone has to follow or else?

I think it was more along the lines of showing respect for the Office of President than respecting him. However - I do think there is duality here. You had Reps saying respect the Office - that now absolutely don't respect the Office.

So I can see that duality there.

ROFLMAO!!! SMH!!!

ROFLMAO!!!!!
SMH!!!