Change My Mind

Standing six feet apart is from a high school science project with no confirming scientific studies. Wearing a mask properly, even an official hospital type made to fit your face, loses it's effectiveness after 5-10 minutes due to the mask becoming moist from your breath. As for cloth masks- see a chain link fence keeping a mosquito out. Our best test subjects- those on the infected cruise ships- less than 50% stuck in a tiny cabin with an infected person contracted the virus, and none of them died. Picture the cubic feet of air around you at any given time and realize the odds of someone passing the virus to you without actually sneezing in your face is soooo miniscule. Masks for everyone in every situation is a joke.

This stops about 6-12 weeks after we start wearing masks.

Without herd immunity it never goes away

So, we're pretty much the only country still dealing with the first wave. Which is already a bad sign that we've messed this up - but the reason other countries got there isn't because they achieved herd immunity - I don't think ANYONE has yet, it only appeared in January - but because they slowed the rate of transmission down to the level where emergency rooms can handle it now.

Herd immunity happens whatever we do! The virus doesn't give a shit - it's going to infect everybody at some point! Our choice here is how many dead bodies we want to have buried by the time we get herd immunity. How many Americans do you want to die because you don't like masks?

We can slow the rate of death but not the number totaled at the end.

What do you think a hospital does, exactly?

Nothing for 130k, assuming the reports were not doctored or inflated

I’m willing to bet 100% of those deaths happened on ventilators

DrSarcasm is right

I'm honestly having trouble believing that you seriously think it works that way.

Basic math, The virus is going to kill a given percentage of people. It matters little whether everybody is exposed in two months or 10 months. The same number of people die. Realistically, by the time a vaccine is developed produced AND distributed, the spread of the virus will be virtually herd immunity.
Many prisons are achieving herd immunity now. Just do your best to keep it out of nursing homes and away from people with chronic medical conditions. The fatality rate for people under 65 with no medical conditions is very very small. I’m not saying it’s nonexistent but it’s very very small.

See, again, this only looks logical to you if you accept the really, REALLY weird premise that you and your buddy put out that it doesn't make a difference if you have access to a functioning hospital or not when you get sick.

Multiple field hospitals were built across the country at the beginning of this experience, even in NYC. Most were shut down without seeing even one patient. Where are they now?
The experts said at the beginning “give us 15 days to flatten the curve“, which turned into 30 days which turned into 45 which turned into three more months, etc.

What you’re missing is policy involves more than just a response to a pandemic. Policy needs to consider other factors. How much damage can the economy take now and be able to deal with future crises, like a major earthquake? Or some other biological infestation coming out of China? Look at what’s happening in Kazakhstan!

Covid-19 is a NEW virus. Unlike the normal flu (for which we vaccinate the elderly) there is little to no immunity within the population. So, it will be more widespread than a normal flu. The only way to stop it is through herd immunity, which is achieved naturally through contagion or artificially by vaccination.

Realistically making everybody stay home for 18 months waiting for a vaccine is entirely impractical. On the other hand, just letting the virus run rampant through the community is not the best policy either. The policy in the middle, all things considered, is protect the people with a medical profile that makes them susceptible to dying. How many people have lost jobs and are not paying their rent or mortgage? And what happens to them when this is over? How many peoples’ retirement is getting all screwed up? There are so many things this is affecting. (help- I’m out of toilet paper! LOL)
Are you going to save everybody? No.
Is everybody going to die? No.
There is no one perfect solution that will make 100% of the people happy.

I see your viewpoint. I hope you can see mine. It is ok if we disagree.

Please, stay safe if you are high risk.

Except science has never been able to produce a vaccine for coronavirus, and you can get pretty blue in the face holding your breath until they find one. The young, for whom this virus is no worse than the regular flu, can make up the numbers to achieve herd immunity. Unfortunately, they're the ones most likely to be wearing masks, after being never taught how to do critical thinking.

The medical profile of those most susceptible dying has been known for quite some time. These people need to be isolated and protected. Everybody else can develop heard immunity in a short amount of time – and then it’s over. There are prisons achieving herd immunity. The USS Roosevelt aircraft carrier probably has herd immunity. The Jewish community in the Bronx is approaching herd immunity.

https://www.wnd.com/2020/07/4835699/

All this social distancing, closing businesses, sheltering at home leaves a community at day one, sitting right in front of a big spike in inevitable infections. The economy can sustain a short lockdown, but not an prolonged one.

Protect the vulnerable and then open up the economy. The overall infection fatality rate is very small. This is not the Spanish flu.

Oh for f**k's sake - for the four millionth time, guessing who the disease will kill has never done anything for anyone. Since the dawn of time, pandemic response has been best when you isolate the people who are transmitting the disease. Always. You stop spreading disease, and people stop dying. It is that simple.

I agree people who are sick should stay home. Should people with a peanut allergy carry an EpiPen with them for their protection? The medical community is saying people who are over 65, have diabetes, hypertension, are morbidly obese, are immunocomprised or have severe asthma are high risk of dying. The EpiPen for these people is isolation and protection.
Quarantining the sick works when you can identify them because of their symptoms, and you can do contact tracing to see who they may have infected. Because of the lack of symptoms in some infected people and the population density in some communities, quarantining and contact tracing will not be possible, especially once it spreads so much. There is not the manpower to do contact tracing.
Herd immunity is a valid phenomenon.
If the sick are to be quarantined, then why did governors in three eastern states sign orders mandating vulnerable populations of nursing home residents be exposed to sick patients returning from hospitals resulting in tens of thousands of deaths?

Paragraph 1: OK, now imagine that everyone is carrying peanuts in their pocket. It'd be fine if you just wear gloves and keep your own peanuts contained safely - but every time you bring that up, you go "myemyemyemyemye the people with the allergies should carry around EpiPens." THAT'S what we're dealing with here.

Paragraph 2: No. In almost every disease afflicting the human species, by the time you can identify when a person is sick, it is already too late: they have already spread it to other people. That is how almost every contagion works. If you just isolate symptomatic people, you don't stop the disease from spreading among the people who haven't noticed anything wrong yet. It is a recipe for disaster. Stop the disease from spreading. Look up what a disease vector is. Stop. Being. The Vector.

Your response in paragraph one is in accurate. Not everybody has the virus or peanuts it’s a small percentage of any given time.

Your response to paragraph two is in accurate also. Most infectious viruses are infectious while the person has symptoms. Measles is a rare exception where are you contagious before you have symptoms. Most people with coronavirus are contagious while they have symptoms. Which is why they are being told to stay home for two weeks.

While we are going in circles.,,

In California-
In San Quentin State Prison in San Francisco's Bay Area, infections among prisoners soared after the transfer of 121 inmates from the California Institution for Men in Chino, which reported hundreds of cases amid crowded conditions.

The prison plan is to release 8,000 “vulnerable” into the public, after they have been exposed. Quarantine, contact trace and test away. Another outbreak on its way!

How is “quarantine” being handled by the Govt again? Just like the nursing homes on the east coast- Sending infected people into uninfected populations to keep it spreading

Can’t have it both ways

Which do you advocate, preventive measures such as quarantining or allowing for the free mingling of the infected with the general population in hopes of achieving herd inmmunity?

Yes, rate of infection spread in NY significantly dropped because of what measures again?

And "The Jewish community in the Bronx is approaching herd immunity."?

Both
1. Isolate and protect the people at high risk of dying: +65, diabetic, obese, high blood pressure, COPD, immunocompromised.
2. Everyone else still works, biz as usual.
3. If you have symptoms, stay home
4. Some will need medical treatment. Treat early w/chloroquine/zinc/vit D/Zithromax

In Ohio median age for COVID deaths is 81. Similar elsewhere.

As I see it, if you’re exposed to COVID-19 there are possible outcomes:

a. You have no symptoms, may possibly have cross immunity from another coronavirus, possibly from MMR vaccine, possibly from TB vaccine, or just genetics. If you acquired the virus with no symptoms, you can spread it.

b. You have very mild symptoms and may not even think you’re sick, but you can spread it after you develop symptoms. Or, your symptoms may be quite obvious and you’ll feel very sick.

c. You have very serious symptoms and need medical treatment. Three outcomes here:
1. You get better relatively quickly without needing a ventilator.
2. You don’t recover quickly and go on a ventilator for over a week and recover.
3. You don’t recover quickly, go on a ventilator, and eventually die.

Sorry, it is Brooklyn:
https://www.wnd.com/2020/07/4835699/

It’s not the infection rate or number of infections that is matters. What’s important is protecting the people that are vulnerable to dying. In the long run, if you want to protect the people that are vulnerable to dying, it’s important to achieve heard immunity as quickly as possible. Economically speaking it’s cheaper to protect a smaller percentage of the population for a shorter amount of time, then it is to have everybody not go to work and just totally destroyed economy for eight months to a year or longer. End of story!

I take it the Obese-Geriatic-Case-in-Chief is exempt from the quarantice colony in Greenland?

Oh, wait, you mean the Hasidics of Crown Heights who thanks to their large families in overcrowded apartments living in poverty with their anti-vax stance have ushered in a return of the measles in recent years? Is that what that lesser educated lot told you, that they've achieved herd immunity? Hey, the Rabbis and leaders they lost due to this were't exactly 20, so they may they're on to something,,,

Will you listen to a medical expert?
Dr Scott Atlas at Stanford Univ:

"The solution to this is really protect the high risk in a more diligent way than we are, the very highest-risk group. We have been very, very clear about that to people," Atlas said.

Appeal to Authority, what a delight.

But if I must, I prefer medical community (scientific) consensus, with added weight given to realistically practical approaches at containment.

But for your sake, let's break the practicalities down, shall we?

Gathering 14.9% of the population which is elderly overlapping with the 36.5% which is obese and 48.5% with cardiovascular disease, etc, and isolating them in a quarantine zone till the disease ups and goes away

vs

Wearing a mask and standing six feet apart.

Gee, that's a toughy there, innit?
Wonder which is more cost effective and less likely to have a deleterious effect on Donny's precious economy?

quarantine* colony

weren't*

This comment was responded to with some logical and constructive ideas. The ensuing response from Vagabond Souffle is entirely vitriol and garbage, proving he is only part of the problem

You posted some Cult45 nonsense filled out with the basics and fluffed that out with nonsense.

You're gonna put everyone over a certain age away? What is this, Logan's Run?

Go ahead, post actual numbers regarding the Hasidim.That should be easy because they've actually been studied quite a bit over the years by medical researchers on account of genetics from inbreeding, much like the Amish. Small founding population, keep to themselves, that sort of thing. That makes them more susceptible to diseases both of external infectious origin or hereditary. For example, Autism and breast cancer afflict them at higher than average rates. To think they are somehow immune to Corona or have established resistance is utterly ludicrous.

Just because at a funeral for a Rabbi WHO DIED OF CORONA they had a group in the hundreds gathered and walking the streets with no protection or spacing and refused when instructed to do so by NYPD they claimed they are not catching it don't make it true.

Yes, we have local news stations in the media capital of the World. You watch Infartwar videos on the YouTubez, I watch WABC, WNBC, WCBS, Spectrum NEWS1, and Cablevision NEWS12 the Bronx.

Try again.

Folks just be rushing to the nearest leper colony because we're all gonna get it anyways so might as well achieve that herd immunity ASAP.

HIV? Sure, stick it in!

Looks like someone is irritated when they should be thankful.
At least two of them deleted, and l'm about to check on the rest, toots.

And you're welcome.

OOps, too soon. He's back with another profile.

Enjoy.

Hugs

Actually Crankyhead and o_O are still here.

But TimbHer and MadderTitan deleted at the same time...

Have fun thinking I got a whole gaggle of me humping you round the clock!

Yet you and Elizabeth_R_Folks are still around...Albeit that you've been sticking to your guns for quite some time.

Can't say the same of miss misses Elizabeth

Wha?

Ahh, got it.

Does that cover them then?

"Your mental health continues its rapid deterioration, to the point where you insist that comments made by strangers who happen to have picked the same user name on different boards at different times are, in fact, the same person. Your mental illness is so pronounced, you can't even distinguish between writing styles, spelling, grammar, vocabulary, and syntax which are quite different from each other. Your mental health is so precarious, you don't even realize that people can take known information and use it to create independent shill accounts, while making it look like they're connected.

You really need to look into selecting one of the fine mental health facilities in the Bronx. I'm sure any of them will take excellent care of you."

We know who you are Arnatz

Nuthin butt love for ya (see what I did there, albeit sloppily?)

That is oversimplified. This disease is a prolific spreader. You cannot hide it away. Previous pandemics did not shut down the economy for extended periods, we took precautions and lived through them. There were no stay at home orders given in any previous pandemic of which there have been a few. We should pay everyone over 55 or with pre existing conditions to stay at home and everybody else go about living until something develops to treat the sickness. Herd immunity may not work if this is a flu type virus it may reappear every year with a different strain. You won’t be able to hide forever.

Previous pandemics have shut down wars. They have shut down industries. They made dirt out of kings and emperors. And they have been very well studied.

Your commitment to obstinance is admirable I guess, if you're into that kind of thing, but there's some basic shit to this that you just don't care to face. 7,000 kids in Florida have tested positive for COVID-19 and you still can't recognize the problem with reopening schools as normal.

I honestly don't believe that you buy into your own nonsense. I think you know full well that you say shit that is wrong, but you think you're cool for drumming up more arguments and more excuses.

You are the guy that when the pilot announces “we are experiencing engine trouble” stands up and starts hysterically screaming “WE ARE ALL GONNA DIE”. Though engine trouble is a serious threat to everyone’s life on the plane your hysterical fear and panic doesn’t help. We are not all gonna die.

No, when the engine has trouble and the oxygen masks drop from the overhead compartment and everyone's putting them on calmly and quickly, you're the guy who shouts "you know, those things don't work!" and discourages everyone from putting them on even though every safety drill on every flight you've ever been on made it clear what you sould be doing in that situation.

Make no mistake.

Ya so oxygen masks don’t drop for engine trouble that would potentially add to the danger. They drop due to depressurization at altitude. Wrong reaction to the problem but indicative of your phobic reactions. You want to stay in your house and hide until it goes away by all means do so. If you feel better wearing a mask, wear one. I’m not the one proposing laws and punishments for not abiding by my views.

That is unprecedented in modern times and a bit hypocrital from the people who don’t want any punishment for non violent crimes except mask wearing. So the flu has and does kill tens of thousands yearly. Shouldn’t we just stay in our houses forever and maybe it will go away? Oh yeah everything stops if we do that. No food production, no toilet paper etc.

And none of them died. Isn't that what we're trying to prevent?

I was speaking of pandemics in the modern era and since the advent of modern medicine. You trying to compare the Bubonic plague of the Middle Ages is a little insincere isn’t it. Name another country in the world that has maintained its schools closed. Closing in some areas may be prudent but closing the entire national system because of your phobic fear Is not the answer either.

FYI

Ohio stats as of 6/29/2020

The age range for cases is from under 1 to 109, with a median age of 46. The median age for deaths is 81.