God gave us back our voice

Me Talking to God: "Truly, you have a dizzying intellect."

Couldn't he have used someone else with a little more moral fiber?

he can use bad people for good things, like Saul who became Paul

That seems like God playing with hedons and dolors... I don't imagine Trump making a turn around like Paul.

well, you wouldn't have seen Paul making that turn around at the time either

That's true. So I guess I would just refer to Matthew 7:16 where we are reminded, “By their fruit, you will recognize them,” meaning that genuine change is evident in one's actions and character. I don't see this with Trump. I see him doing the opposite. If we’re to draw parallels, we should look for these deeper signs of transformation, not merely hope for a symbolic shift.

true, but again, Paul just suddenly turned around and became a Christian. while i agree that it's better to look at his actions than to just hope, i think that God wouldn't allow him to become president if it took down the nation (or even the world)

He botched the COVID response. Though, to his credit, Operation Warp Speed was successful.

relevance?

Looking at actions.

ah

You should maybe look at the bigger picture at what Trump is trying to accomplish; everyone has heard about his faults. Others who have been in power try to act like they are beyond reproach, when everyone knows that they are not.

Look, I get that God can use anyone to accomplish His plans, even people who don’t follow Him; Isaiah 45:1-4 makes that clear. But let’s not confuse that with God approving of someone’s character or actions. The Bible doesn’t give us permission to overlook sin just because we think it might serve a purpose. It’s literally written in 1 Thessalonians 5:22: “Abstain from all appearances of evil.” If someone’s behavior is consistently wrong (e.g. prideful, deceitful, or harmful) we shouldn’t try to justify it.

Proverbs 29:2 says it plainly: “When the righteous increase, the people rejoice, but when the wicked rule, the people groan.” And honestly, isn’t that what we’re seeing? Division, chaos, and so much groaning. If we’re going to call someone a leader after God’s own heart, their life should reflect it. Galatians 5:22-23 lists the fruits of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Do you really see that with Trump? Because I don’t.

People love bringing up Saul becoming Paul, but let’s be real... Paul’s transformation was obvious. He went from persecuting Christians to sacrificing EVERYTHING to serve others and preach the gospel. Matthew 7:16 reminds us: “By their fruits, you will recognize them.” Transformation is shown in actions, not just words or positions of power. If there’s no repentance, no humility, and no real change, then we can’t just slap a “chosen by God” label on someone because it’s convenient.

And let’s not forget: Proverbs 16:12 says, “It is an abomination to kings to do evil, for the throne is established by righteousness.” God doesn’t bless leaders for doing the wrong thing for the right reasons. He calls us to righteousness, period.

We can’t keep making excuses for behavior that contradicts everything Jesus taught. We’re called to follow Him, not a political agenda. If supporting someone makes the world question our commitment to God’s values, then we’re not shunning the appearance of evil - we’re embracing it. That’s not okay. End of story.

< If we’re going to call someone a leader after God’s own heart,>

Whoever said that about Trump? I never did.

To play the Devil's Advocate here, biblically the "man after God's heart" was King David. If you read about David what is it about him would you think would make him any kind of role model today? David was favored by God, but he was not without fault: David who chose a plague on his people instead of punishment on himself (2 Samuel 24:13), David who spurned his first wife Michal who loved him and was utterly devoted to him (1 Samuel 14). David who, set up Uriah his loyal and honorable soldier to be slain in battle, because he wanted Bathsheba whom David raped? The child he conceived on her cursed to die, because of DAVID'S sin?? David's attitude and behavior towards women would be seen as insufferable today. If you would compare David to Trump in this matter I don't think Trump holds a candle to David. So why was David so favored by God? Who are we to question? Maybe it was David's remorse after being called out for his moral failings. We only now about this because it was recorded in the Bible. What Trump regrets or doesn't regret it between him and God.

<Proverbs 29:2 "When the righteous increase, the people rejoice, but when the wicked rule, the people groan.” And honestly, isn’t that what we’re seeing? Division, chaos, and so much groaning.>

Which has been happening since the Obama Administration and the identity politics. And yes, a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth by the Democratic party mouthpieces in the media.

No one with half a brain thinks Trump is a saint, but he seems to have a better sense of what is right and wrong than the mealy-mouthed high horsey Democrats that are running the Capitol at present.

I think it would benefit you to go back and read David some more. That said, I will say that you're at least partially right that David was deeply flawed, but his favor with God wasn’t because he was sinless - it was because he acknowledged his sins with humility and sought repentance (Psalm 51).

So, King David was favored for his humility, and repentance before God. Democrats, like Biden (who actually attends church) admits past mistakes, and demonstrates a willingness to grow, aligning closer to David’s example. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Biden fan, but I know a fellow Christian when I see one. Trump’s actions (in contrast, by his own admission,) often reject that humility, boasting instead of remorse. Comparing him to David only holds if Trump shows the same repentance and desire to honor God’s will over his own.

Proverbs 29:2 applies to all leaders, so the division and groaning under any administration - Republican or Democrat - suggests we should focus less on partisanship and more on holding leaders accountable to the same godly principles we’d expect from anyone.

President Jimmy Carter might have been the most "Christian" President America has had in my memory, but he sucked as a President.

This is completely off subject, but do tell.

When you quoted Proverbs 29:2 you were not referring to "all leaders" you were referring to just Trump. Don't try to move the goalposts.

You mention Biden as a godly man????? Don't make me puke. He advocates policies that would get him excommunicated from the Catholic Church, if the bishop of his Diocese had any kind of spine. Biden is a pious hypocrite who flaunts religion as a tool to curry favor with leftist voters in the Catholic church who think a godless socialist government is the second coming of the Kingdom of God.

Him, clutching his rosary and advocating for abortion even up to full term, advocating for the abomination that is trangenderism and all it entails? The Blessed Virgin Mary must be weeping. The Biden who is for "Diversity, Equity, Inclusion" which flies in the face of "equal treatment under the law"? The man, Biden, who threw open the border to let in how many unvetted and criminal foreigners, when others who came to our country did so by following all the rules? Biden, who gave illegals "Free Stuff" like Medicaid and EBT(Food Stamp allotments) when we have underserved legal American citizens who get denied benefits for not crossing every "T" and dotting every "i" on complicated forms? And now Biden, the foreign leader "expert", authorizing the Ukraine to use 'our' missiles on Russia, to elevate the danger of a nuclear war, just 2 months before he turns over the keys of the White House to his successor, Donald Trump? The man Biden, who when he came into office, purposely reversed and trashed the work of Trump who preceded him? On the Border? Abandoning staff and equipment in Afghanistan and equipping an emboldening the Taliban with our abandoned military hardware??

<suggesting we should focus less on partisanship and more on holding leaders accountable to the same godly principles we’d expect from anyone.> "We" plan on holding leaders accountable: Most definitely.

"Biden is a pious hypocrite who flaunts religion as a tool to curry favor with leftist voters in the Catholic church"
Donno why you're mad about that

"who think a godless socialist government is the second coming of the Kingdom of God."
When did he or anyone say this? I've not heard that from the left.

"Him, clutching his rosary and advocating for abortion even up to full term"
Also not heard anyone say this.

"The Biden who is for "Diversity, Equity, Inclusion" which flies in the face of "equal treatment under the law"?"
'Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) is about fostering an environment where individuals from diverse backgrounds, identities, and perspectives feel valued, respected, and empowered. It emphasizes equitable opportunities and outcomes by addressing systemic barriers and ensuring fair treatment, while promoting inclusion to create a sense of belonging for everyone. DEI aims to cultivate a culture that embraces differences and leverages them to drive innovation, collaboration, and social justice.'
So, are, you mad that DEI is encouraging people to work together with different backgrounds and to recognize those backgrounds? I wouldn't think so; I think you're conflating DEI with Affirmative action.

"Biden, who threw open the border to let in how many unvetted and criminal foreigners, when others who came to our country did so by following all the rules?"
While I'm not a big Bidenophile, I do like facts. A good litmus test to explain whether a border is "open" involves examining the enforcement of legal entry procedures and the handling of unauthorized crossings. An "open border" suggests minimal to no enforcement, allowing unrestricted movement without checks or consequences. A "closed" or regulated border, in contrast, includes documented entry points, visa requirements, security measures, and consequences for unauthorized entry. Evaluating these policies—such as the presence of border patrol, deportation practices, and requirements for legal entry—can clarify whether a border is open or controlled.

The Bible warns against favoritism (James 2:1-26) and hypocrisy in judgment (Matthew 7:1-5). Excusing sin in one leader while condemning another contradicts its call for fairness, integrity, and consistent standards.

<Donno why you're mad about that>. Matthew 6:1-18

<I've not heard that from the left.>. You heard it from me, drawing my own conclusions.

<Also not heard anyone say this.>.
Cool. Because I'm not parroting anyone's talking points. Biden IS pro-Choice. And he has
Him being a professed Catholic, a public figure, affirming the 'right' of abortion would have earned excommunication from the Church (in past years) which regards abortion as a mortal sin, and any participation in it in any way by supporting it participates in murder. The Catholic church has weak bishops and a weak pope in respect to American politicians. But the sin of abortion has never been abrogated.

<DEI> Students for Fair Admissions v. Harvard 6/29/2023 While technically about Affirmative Action DEI as applied in policies is not far from Affirmative action and is an outgrowth of Affirmative Action.

DEI <It emphasizes equitable opportunities and outcomes by addressing systemic barriers and ensuring fair treatment, while promoting inclusion to create a sense of belonging for everyone. DEI aims to cultivate a culture that embraces differences and leverages them to drive innovation, collaboration, and social justice.'>. Vague, subjective, goals make for vague subjective laws and regulations. Who decides what is "fair"? How is this "ensured"? Which metrics are to be used? "equitable outcomes" negates merit and effort when 'everyone' gets the same piece of cheese regardless. "systemic barriers" What 'systemic barriers'? This is highly debatable. The Civil Rights Act was supposed to fix racial injustice; enforcing DEI turns Civil Rights into a blunt weapon.

DEI is why FEMA overlooked (((some))) some wrecked homes in the destruction of Hurricane Milton, and why there is so little faith in the government to be actually 'fair' and 'equitable' in the treatment of the people it is supposed to help. DEI is why FEMA money went to helping illegal aliens instead of hurricane victims because money was funneled from FEMA to Mayorkas' DHS.

You must think being a Christian means supporting a government that taxes its people and spends it as it pleases on who it pleases, regardless of who it harms and who it benefits.

Soul_Roll, your arguments shift the standard depending on who you’re defending. When I quoted Proverbs 29:2 about the consequences of wicked leadership, you claimed I was only applying it to Trump. That’s not true - I’ve been consistent in applying biblical principles to all leaders. You’re the one excusing Trump’s behavior by pointing to others’ flaws instead of addressing his own.

First, you bring up King David’s sins as a defense for Trump. But David isn’t remembered for his sins - he’s remembered for his repentance and humility, something we haven’t seen from Trump. Comparing them only works if Trump shows the same genuine remorse, which he hasn’t. Then, you attack Biden, calling him a hypocrite for his faith, while excusing Trump’s openly unrepentant behavior. Why does Biden have to perfectly align with Catholic doctrine while Trump gets a free pass? That’s shifting the standard to favor your argument, not applying it consistently.

Even on DEI, you shift the narrative, conflating it with affirmative action to suit your criticism. DEI isn’t about forcing equal outcomes but about removing barriers. You claim it undermines merit, but where’s the evidence for that? It seems you’re using a vague critique of DEI to justify FEMA’s alleged failures - connecting dots where none exist.

Your approach keeps changing the rules depending on who you’re talking about. If the standard is leadership by example and alignment with Christian values, then it has to apply equally to Trump and Biden. Anything else is just moving the goalposts to protect your preferred leader, not standing on principle.

Is there something else you'd like to talk about? Or do we want to focus on the original topic - the merits (lack thereof) of Trump as a Christian Leader?

Well why don't "we" just start over again? Let's play "answer the question(s)" . . .

<the original topic - the merits (lack thereof) of Trump as a Christian Leader>
He was voted in to run the country (secular), not lead a Church. By analogy, if you needed the services of a good heart surgeon, would you base your choice on how good of a Christian he is, or his medical skill?

1. Instead of criticizing my support of Trump and throwing shade on Trump why don't you come out and say Who YOU supported for the 2024 Presidential race? Or did you not vote? Would your candidate stand up to the same kind of withering scrutiny that Trump has?

2. Does your 'ideal' (real life) candidate support abortion as a right? Support an 'open border' policy? Support extensive social programs "for the people"? Support pacifism in the world political arena? Support involvement in a so-called "just war?" Support reparations for slavery? How "conservative" are you?

3. Why do you disagree with the premise of the OP's Meme title?

5. Do you think America is a "Christian" country that should have elected a "Christian" president? And which kind? The warm, fuzzy 'love thy neighbor' Christian, or the "10 Commandments Bible Christian"? Christianity can justify both sides because it is a-political. But typically the 1st Kind leans left and the 2nd Kind leans right.

5. <Democrats, like Biden (who actually attends church) admits past mistakes, and demonstrates a willingness to grow, > Examples and sources, please. Otherwise ROFL

<We can’t keep making excuses for behavior that contradicts everything Jesus taught.>
I don't make excuses for his behavior, because I don't have to. What I will judge him for in the future is the ability to or at least the attempt made to keep his campaign promises.
As far as his personal conduct-
Trump has to answer to his wife, not "me" or "we" the people. His sexual indiscretions have nothing to do with running the country. Funny, I brought up King David. . . he is immortalized as being Israel's greatest leader in history, and his sins are overlooked, because, with the forgiveness of God he doesn't need "our" forgiveness. But we don't know yet what Trump will be remembered for, but you assume the worst, because, "you don't like him".

First, let’s not forget this is the #Christian stream, not #politics #conservatives or #Real_Politics. Here, our moral compass is rooted in the Bible, and Trump doesn’t align with that compass in any meaningful way. Period.

Now, let’s address the gymnastics you’re doing to throw this off-topic. You’re using a lot of whataboutism and hypotheticals to deflect from the core issue: why Christian voters are supporting someone who fundamentally contradicts Christian values.

You claim Trump isn’t running a church, so his personal character doesn’t matter. But that argument falls apart when Christian voters tout his leadership as somehow divinely inspired. If you’re going to invoke God or defend his actions through a biblical lens, then his actions and character _absolutely_ matter. The Bible is clear on this: leaders are judged by their fruits (Matthew 7:16), and the fruits we’ve seen are pride, division, deceit, and self-interest. Those aren’t exactly Spirit-approved attributes.

As for your list of tangents, here’s the deal:

1) My vote? This isn’t about me. Classic deflection. My voting record doesn’t make Trump’s behavior any less contradictory to Christian teachings.
2) Your laundry list of issues? Immigration, abortion, pacifism, reparations - nice try at derailing. But we’re talking about Trump’s alignment with Christian values, not a buffet of political hot topics.
3) “Christian” country? America isn’t a theocracy, but Christians voting as though it is while backing a leader who opposes their core teachings is hypocrisy.

Let’s also address this laughable double standard: you’re bending over backward to dismiss Trump’s sins as irrelevant, but demanding receipts and citations for Biden’s repentance and humility. You can’t excuse one leader while holding another to an impossible standard. If you’re judging Trump purely on his effectiveness and not his morality, fine - just stop trying to frame it as some kind of godly endorsement. Own the hypocrisy.

To bring it back to the core point: Christian voters choosing Trump isn’t just inconsistent; it’s counter to our own values. If you can’t reconcile that, don’t blame others for pointing it out.

Not deflecting, it's called dialogue, and you don't want to participate, apparently being comfortable with sniping answers and ducking questions.

This was a political meme in the Christian stream, and you chose to respond to it.

1. Non-answer. Not surprising
2. Non-answer. Again, not surprising.

<Christian voters choosing Trump isn’t just inconsistent; it’s counter to our own values. >
No it isn't, and it isn't hypocritical when 'the opposition' supports abortion as healthcare, promotes the abomination of transgenderism and LGBTQ in the public school system to underage children, favors intrusive government in people's private lives (such as the COVID lock-downs), favors the erosion of parental rights, the erosion of religious liberty and the right to free speech because of the fear of 'offending' a groups of legally protected professional victims, preposterous and catastrophic taxation policies on unrealized gains which would rob people of life savings, pensions, drive poverty, cause people to lose their homes, bankrupt families. . but tldr you aren't interested in details. . .

3. When given a choice Christians are not obligated to vote for leaders who they believe do not act in their best interests or be in favor of laws that go against their principles. While we hope for Kingdom Come we still have to live in this world in the meantime. If Trump is not "Christian" enough for you to support, do you think Kamala Harris was "Christian" and supports 'Christian values'? Again, you reserve your criticism for Trump without looking at the other options as a comparison. It is a fair question and one that you refuse to answer.

< just stop trying to frame it as some kind of godly endorsement. > Isaiah 45 went completely over your head. There are also other passages in the Bible, the Book of Ezra, I believe, where Cyrus allows the exiles to return to Jerusalem. Again, God's hand working through a 'non-believer'. Not quite the same as an endorsement.

<The Bible is clear on this: leaders are judged by their fruits (Matthew 7:16),>
No, PROPHETS. are judged by their fruits, political leaders and people are judged by their effectiveness and the prosperity of their people.

You can't see the evils in the policies that the current presidency and the presidency that Kamala Harris would further promote, and that Trump is trying to fight these (evil) policies which is a GOOD thing because Trump isn't a squeeky-clean choir-boy. But, whatever. You do you.

First off, calling it “dialogue” doesn’t make it less of a deflection when you’re dumping a laundry list of grievances unrelated to the original topic. That’s like someone asking, “How does Trump align with Christian values?” and you responding, “Well, Biden isn’t perfect either, and here’s 37 reasons why I’m upset with modern politics.” It’s not a conversation- it’s verbal hopscotch.

Let’s break your queries/complaints point by point:

1. “Non-answer. Not surprising.”
No, it’s a refusal to let you steer the discussion off the cliff of irrelevance. You keep demanding I outline my preferred candidate or critique Kamala Harris. Nice try, but my personal preferences don’t negate the hypocrisy of Christian voters supporting Trump. That’s the topic, not Biden, Harris, or whether my vote matches your expectations.

2. “Christians are not obligated to vote for non-Christian leaders...”
Sure, we have to live in the real world and make hard choices. No one’s arguing that. But when those choices include a candidate who actively embodies pride, deceit, and selfishness—things Christians are supposed to oppose—you don’t get to wrap that in biblical justification without addressing the dissonance. It’s one thing to say, “I voted for Trump because I think he’ll deliver results.” It’s another to claim some divine parallel to King Cyrus or pretend it’s totally fine to overlook behavior that contradicts biblical teachings just because you like his policies.

3. “Isaiah 45 went completely over your head.”
Nope, I understand the Cyrus comparison. The problem is using it as a spiritual hall pass for Trump’s lack of integrity. Cyrus fulfilled a specific role in a specific historical context, and while God can use anyone for His purposes, that’s not the same as endorsing their behavior. Cyrus didn’t walk around claiming divine favor while flaunting actions contrary to God’s principles. Trump, however, courts Christian voters by posturing as one of them while openly contradicting the values he claims to represent. See the difference?

4. “Leaders are judged by effectiveness, not fruits.”
Oh, so now we’re cherry-picking scripture? Matthew 7:16 applies to recognizing anyone’s alignment with God’s will, not just prophets. If you’re invoking Cyrus to argue Trump is being used by God, then yes, his actions should reflect Godly fruits like humility, truth, and justice. If not, your argument is just vibes with no accountability.

(But wait, there's more!) (1/2)

(page 2/2)

5. “You can’t see the evils in the opposition’s policies...” (what part about "this is about Trump" do you not get?)
What I see is a lot of pivoting. The criticism isn’t that Trump isn’t “squeaky clean”; it’s that his behavior and values are often antithetical to the Christian principles his supporters claim to hold. Voting for him despite his flaws is one thing. Trying to frame it as a spiritually sound decision, while ignoring his lack of repentance, humility, or fruits of the Spirit? That’s where the hypocrisy lives.

You’re also conveniently ignoring that Jesus didn’t advocate for “lesser evil” politics. He called us to stand for righteousness, period. If supporting someone tarnishes the very values we’re supposed to embody, that’s a problem—one Christians should acknowledge, not excuse.

Final Point
You can vote for Trump because you think he’s the best option politically. That’s your prerogative. But trying to moralize it as the “Christian” choice while ignoring his blatant contradictions to Christian teaching? That’s the issue here. You don’t have to like Harris or Biden to admit that Trump isn’t a paragon of biblical values. Own the compromise, instead of spiritualizing it with vague parallels and deflections.

BONUS CONTENT:
Let’s go back to the original topic: an image of Trump with the caption “GOD GAVE US BACK OUR VOICE THROUGH THIS MAN” alongside an electoral map. The real issue isn’t about who I did or didn’t vote for—it’s about whether Trump genuinely reflects the values Christians claim to uphold. The narrative that Trump is some kind of divine vessel for Christian values falls apart under serious scrutiny. Claiming God “gave us back our voice” through Trump while ignoring his pride, deceit, and divisive actions feels less like a spiritual revelation and more like an attempt to retrofit faith into political convenience.

Now, you keep asking me who I voted for, but let’s be honest—that changes nothing about Trump. Even if I told you, unless my vote was for Trump, you’d likely dismiss my perspective as irrelevant. And if I did vote for Trump, you’d call me a hypocrite for criticizing him now. I could say I voted for Cornel West, Jill Stein, Chase Oliver, Claudia De La Cruz, Kamela Harris, The Boogeyman, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, or didn’t vote at all—but the only reason you want that information is to pivot away from Trump and attack my position instead of addressing the actual topic.

That’s deflection, not dialogue.

You say Christians aren’t obligated to vote for leaders who align perfectly with their faith. True—but when Christians celebrate a leader as “God’s chosen” while excusing his behavior that openly contradicts biblical teachings, that’s where the hypocrisy comes in. Voting for him as a “lesser evil” is one thing; sanctifying his actions as divinely inspired is another entirely.

If you want to argue that Trump is effective at implementing policies you support, fine. But don’t pretend that makes him the moral or spiritual leader Christians are called to rally behind. That’s not biblical—it’s just political expediency wrapped in religious language.

So let’s drop the distractions. This discussion isn’t about my vote, Biden’s flaws, or Harris’ hypothetical presidency. It’s about whether Christians can justify glorifying Trump as a “God-given” leader while ignoring the glaring contradictions in his character and actions.

If you want to engage with that, I’m happy to continue. If you just want to keep moving the goalposts, then maybe it’s time to admit you’re not interested in the question at hand.

Sorry, ... dude. Trump got 60% of the Christian vote. You obviously were on the other side. Not that "what everybody else" decides to do should be a reason to vote or not vote for someone. So you either sat out the election, voted for Harris (for reasons unfathomable to me if you claim to be Christian), or voted for some dark horse candidate or a write-in (which is basically a non vote).

Don't care. Done with you. Enjoy looking down your nose from your imagined moral high ground and your electoral loss,.

Your response is exactly what I expected - pure tribalism dressed up as a mic drop.

Focus kid: who I voted for changes nothing about the topic. You’re bringing it up not because it’s relevant, but because it’s easier to attack me than engage with the argument.

Even if 60% of Christians voted for Trump, that doesn’t make it morally or spiritually sound Christianity isn’t a popularity contest. The question isn’t how many supported him but why they justify it by framing him as a divine choice despite his behavior contradicting Christian teachings. If you’re “done with me” because I didn’t take the bait, you'll have proven my point by mistaking your dismissal for a strong rebuttal.