They have stood up well to the Tangerine Traitor Trump's "Savvy Genius," Putin.

Most corrupt countries in the world – ranked

122

I am free and I do not salute Nazi's and Ukraine is NOT A DEMOCRACY.
If you think it is, you need to look up the definition of the word.

For my two cents prankster, I don't care if Ukraine is a democracy or not. Putin can't be allowed to invade neighboring countries, period. If you think he'd stop at Ukraine, I would have to disagree.

Hers's my two-cents:
But the whole reason that Biden and his Administration insists that we send and spend our treasure and our arsenal to Ukraine is to support democracy in Ukraine. P'raps, if we didn't dangle NATO membership in front of them and if we had stopped meddling in Ukraine, there would have been no aggression. P'raps, not. I know when Putin went in to Crimea, Obama and the US didn't do squat...p'raps that emboldened Putin. Who knows?
All I know is that Ukraine is run by some very shady characters and if Biden is so gung-ho to get us involved, NO GOOD CAN COME FROM IT.
Remember, Biden has been wrong on every major foreign policy decision in last 4 decades. PERIOD

Damn prankster, you're making so many good points that you *almost* have me changing my mind!

I'll attempt to counter some of them, but will perhaps fall short.

Ukraine won't be a part of NATO, ever. This war has set that in stone. As I recall, NATO didn't exactly invite Ukraine to be a member to start with. So I don't think that membership was dangled in front of Ukraine. There was talk of it, and if Putin reacts to that by invading, then ultimately the pretense wouldn't matter; he would have invaded regardless, imo.

Where do you stand on Finland and Sweden joining NATO? The Russians have tried taking Finland several times, so do you think this increases the chance of war breaking out between NATO and Russia (NATO being primarily us, of course...) Putin is evil, but not stupid, so he has to know invading Ukraine brought this on, or at least accelerated it.

I agree with your suggestion that president Obama's weakness when Putin invaded Crimea, emboldened Putin. But we deserve what we get when we elect feckless leaders, particularly as it related to foreign policy (so I'm agreeing with you that Biden has been wrong on every foreign policy position/decision he's ever taken.)

As little as I believe Biden to be capable (he is demented, after all...) when it comes to foreign policy, I think (hope?) that even he would not be so effing dumb as to get us involved in a shooting war with the Russians. He could gaffe us into one, because every time he goes off-script, it's like a pinball bouncing around a mine field. The one thing I believe with certainty is that Putin would never have invaded Ukraine on Trump's watch.

There is a silver lining to all of this, or perhaps it's just a pewter lining. But we are having our weapons systems tested in battle against one of our two main geopolitical rivals. And from what I can glean, even in the hands of Ukrainians those weapons are working pretty well. At some point that weaponry would have to be replaced, so at least now we know how to improve it for the next generation we develop. I know, that's not a lot to hang my hat on, but it's something.

Right now I'm at the point of 'both sides suck and those idiots Biden and Co.ain't helping.'

Which is a reasonable and objective point to be at. In spite of the volume of words I used in my reply to prankster, I'm really not going to defend my position too strenuously! There are plenty of good points on both sides of this issue, imo.

"The legislature in Ukraine is administered by the Parliament of Ukraine known as Verkhovna Rada. The parliament consists of 450 deputies elected by equal and universal suffrage."

They have a parliamentary form of government. It is elected by the people. "Free and equal suffrage," means all people have the right to vote. Sounds like most of the Democracies of Europe.

Their President refused to cooperate with the Tangerine Traitor and trump up charges on Hunter Biden. Is that what's got you pissed off?

No.

I blame Nato for going back on their agreement...

Please be specific. I'm genuinely interested in your opinion.

Nato had an agreement not to take in any new members, but they've been pushing their buffer zone closer and closer to the Russian border...

I was not aware of such an agreement, and actually did a quick interweb search and couldn't find anything about such an agreement existing.

Regarding NATO pushing closer to Russia's border, obviously that will piss off Putin. But at the same time, he's absolutely proven that he does not respect the sovereignty of his neighbors. I think we have to go back no further than Neville Chamberlain for a pretty good example of what appeasing a tyrant does, or in reality doesn't do, when it comes to their territorial demands.

So to further enhance this discussion, I'll ask you the same question I asked prankster, which is what are your thoughts about Sweden and Finland joining NATO? If anybody knows first hand about Russian (and USSR, which Putin would love to re-establish) territorial aggression, it would be Finland.

There is also a very good analysis by an independent intelligence officer.

https://thewallwillfall.org/2022/04/17/retired-swiss-intelligence-officer-explains-ukraine/

Gracias!

What democrazy does to a mf

Well stated, Larry. (finally!)

So, can we quit throwing good money after bad and let them fight their own battles. We do not need to be a part of this in any way shape or form. Just how much of a kickback is the vegetable in chief getting for all the wasted money we have shipped over ther?