He’s never flying again

But planes still crash.

Rarely...
2017
Traffic Casualties By Mode
Highway: 37,133
Rail (Trains): 761
Marine (Boats & Other Water Craft): 694
Commercial Airlines: 0

So we get lucky one year.

If I thought luck was involved...I wouldn't fly.

A lot of luck is involved. Sometimes bad luck.

No such thing as luck. No one is rolling dice somewhere and saying "damn, I lose, the plane has to crash". Mechanical failure, pilot error, etc...do not equal luck.

No, but when you board a plane you're rolling the dice that there won't be mechanical failure or pilot error etc. etc.

No. I just get on and sit down. There is either going to be a failure or there isn't. All of that is contingent on actual physics, not luck. There's trust, and faith, but not luck. Trust and faith are only as good as what or who you place them in.

So what you're saying is you don't trust the FDA.

Do you research where your produce comes from, knowing that vendors have a tendency to change? Probably not.

Point is, if people spent half of their time and energy on this and the rest on other research, the collective IQ of anti vaxxers would actually rise.

... no that's wrong, it would just be more Facebook research.

Ah good, lack an argument, so split hairs. You're not worth my time.

Looks like the subject material went over you're head. The "argument" is laid out well enough. Sorry, you can't follow it. I even sourced it, but...like I said earlier, y'all don't listen to anything that doesn't fit your bias.

So you think vacccines are made on faith? Not based on medical science? So tell me, like physics, what can cause a vaccine to kill someone? (generally speaking)

Philosophically speaking, all decisions are faith-based, since knowledge is only degrees of certainty and never 100%. No one knows anything with 100% certainty, therefore faith, even if it's based on a mountain of evidence, is what fills in the gap. Faith, trust, and belief are all synonyms that differ only in the context from which they're used. Vaccines are based on faith in the empirical studies that precede them, which are substantial, but not enough to know something with 100% accuracy; hence, we believe they are good, but we test them over and over to draw closer to certainty. There are stages of development, all of which contribute to the belief that they are good...and safe:

Exploratory stage
Pre-clinical stage
Clinical development
Regulatory review and approval
Manufacturing
Quality control

"Clinical development is a three-phase process. During Phase I, small groups of people receive the trial vaccine. In Phase II, the clinical study is expanded and vaccine is given to people who have characteristics (such as age and physical health) similar to those for whom the new vaccine is intended. In Phase III, the vaccine is given to thousands of people and tested for efficacy and safety."

According to the CDC "Vaccines are in Phase 3 Clinical Trials
Large-scale (Phase 3) clinical trials are in progress or being planned for COVID-19 vaccines in the United States." https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines.html

Now you know why people say we're just part of an experiment. We ARE the test.

"So tell me, like physics, what can cause a vaccine to kill someone? (generally speaking)"

Covid kills in two different ways: vascular and respiratory. We knew the respiratory from the beginning but are only recently figuring out that the vascular system is damaged as well. The spike protein, which the new vaccines imitate on our own bodies' cells, is responsible for vascular disease, strokes, blood clots, embolisms, heart attacks etc., that have been documented as by-products of covid 19. We introduce a harmless virus with the added spike protein to generate an immune response. Simple. However, the immune response is contingent on the immune system being capable of destroying the cells with the artificial spike protein before they do harm, which is a problem for some people. While they won't suffer from any respiratory issues, we've essentially injected them with the other deadly form of the virus, the vascular, which we are only now fully understanding. We didn't know this until around April of this year, after the vaccines were in the public. We introduce a harmless virus into the system, but the spike proteins that we introduce are every bit as dangerous as the spike proteins on the deadly virus as well. We are essentially inoculating people against the respiratory aspect of covid while exposing them to the dangerous spike protein (vascular) aspect of covid. The deaths of those being vaccinated that are contributed to vascular issues are very likely complications from being exposed to the spike protein itself, and worthy of study. Essentially, one has to first survive the vaccine, before they can benefit from it. People who are at vascular risk from covid are highly susceptible to the damage caused by the vaccine. I have two members in my family now that have been hospitalized right after taking the second shot for vascular issues, whereas they had now before. They will live, but embolisms just don't spontaneously generate unless there is a catalyst. They were fortunate that the blood clots ended where they did and didn't cause a stroke...others are not so fortunate.
Below is a good link that discusses aspects of the study that brought this to light. The study itself is linked within it.

https://www.salk.edu/news-release/the-novel-coronavirus-spike-protein-plays-additional-key-role-in-illness/

What vaccine did your family take? Pfizer?

Some took phizer, others took moderna. No j&j.

"I'm defining terms so that one doesn't assume a different definition than the other. It's the first step in outlining an argument..."

I reject the notion that science is based on "faith." Science is based on evidence. ... Faith, as it is interpreted by most religions, is not evidence-based, and is generally held tightly even despite evidence against it. In many cases, faith is even reinforced when evidence is found contrary to it. Saying that "Faith" fills a gap is a compositional fallacy - in this you're saying that because the margin of error which is statistically negligible when concerning science is faith based. Therefore, if science relies on even a little bit of "faith" it relies on faith at the end of the day. This is the compositional fallacy.
No, science is based on predicted outcomes which are made by repeated observation by the primary observer and then again repeated by others to have a near-guaranteed result which can be replicated. If faith enters the equation, the theory/observation is not sound and is thus not supported by the scientific community.

For example:
If I have a lighter, I am in a dry place, no wind, the lighter is fueled, the igniter (whether electric or flint & steel) is functioning, I do not need faith to know that this lighter will light when I strike it. On the highly improbable chance that it doesn't, then investigative work. You form a theory, test the theory, that's where the faith comes in - against yourself and your investigative work that you were thorough in considering all of the variables to make sure that the lighter functions again. All things being equal and functioning within normal limits, the lighter will always light. If you bring up Schrodinger's cat, I am going to throw a shoe at you. :P

Here's a pile of plates then.

Wrong..and there goes the religious red herring. Nice lil deflection. If one doesn't know with 100% certainty, then one doesn't truly know. They believe (since you can't handle the word "faith") that such and such is inevitable based on evidence, to know that it will happen, assumes more knowledge than is available. Your analogy is based on perfect, known conditions; hence, it's unrealistic. Know one knows all the conditions around everything all the time. So one assumes something will work based on the assumption that all the criteria for it to work are in place. The lighter will not strike if you die before trying...just citing that the variables aren't constrained to the lighter itself.

This whole discussion isn't based on something with only a few variables, which I've shown are, in fact, a lot more than assumed. Flying planes and dodging vaccinations have far more chances of error and thus can't be based on absolute knowledge, but a belief that something will work as it has in the past...assuming one knows all the intricacies involved in the past events. Not knowing how the vaccination has affected everyone intimately, severely limits what we actually know about it, and limits us to only what has been investigated by someone who absolutely didn't come into the investigation with a bias one way or the other...and that makes it even harder to "know". And, since no one is actually investigating every claim and we can't even begin to process that information any time soon, all we have are coincidental, correlative, and anecdotal testimony recorded by VAERS. None of that negates the possibility that it's dangerous, only proves that we don't know enough to claim absolutely that the vaccine is safe, or dangerous for most. Doctors and scientists are careful about how they word their response to some of these vax questions, citing lack of evidence to support a view, or lack of evidence to detract from a position, without abjectly stating absolutely one way or the other. This allows them to change their mind in the event further information enters the arena without losing credibility.

You're still basing your arguments out of the unknown which can't be proven and clinging to that, while ignoring the MILLIONS of vaccinations administered and an overwhelming majority of those vaccinated (literally over 99%) have not experienced major symptoms that last beyond two weeks.

Pfizer applied for and received a Biologics License Application, or BLA, with the U.S. Food and Drug Administration - which means its vaccine has been given full approval. When the company initially applied, BioNTech CEO Dr. Uğur Şahin said, “Following the successful delivery of more than 170 million doses to the U.S. population in just a few months, the BLA submission is an important cornerstone of achieving long-term herd immunity and containing COVID-19 in the future.”

A year ago, Pfizer and Moderna collected data from tens of thousands of volunteers, half of whom took the vaccine and half of whom got placebos. The Pfizer trial involved 43,000 participants, while 30,400 people took part in the Moderna trial.

Emergency use approval required the drug companies to follow the volunteers for two months after vaccination. Experts say two months is usually enough to know what reactions we can expect from a vaccine.

But full approval requires at least six months of data. Massive amounts of evidence are collected that can lead the FDA to issue warnings for possible side effects, as it has done with the Johnson & Johnson vaccine.

The FDA once required the drug companies to complete their data collection and submit it, but now the FDA has a “Fast Track” system that allows companies to collect and submit data on a rolling basis to speed the time it takes to get medicines and treatments to market faster.

In short? We are long past the experimental stage. We are now just dealing with people who politicize the vaccine. Your own argument of faith and trust could be used against you, but you'll just split more micro define more terms so that you can't be wrong, but you'll never be right either. I don't deal with scorched earth arguments. Period.

"Philosophically speaking, all decisions are faith-based, since knowledge is only degrees of certainty and never 100%."

This is splitting hairs, stop trying to pretend it isn't.

I'm defining terms so that one doesn't assume a different definition than the other. It's the first step in outlining an argument. It's not splitting hairs...unless you just can't grasp the concept that words have multiple definitions in English and need to be clearly defined before engaging in a debate where those definitions may be skewed.

You asked, wrongfully, if I thought vaccines were made on faith. They are, but that required an explanation as to what "faith" is, just so you didn't come back and waste my time on some religious red herring. Science is inductive, and that being the case, is never truly knowing anything with 100% certainty. Sometimes, that little we don't know can kill us. I'm just saying there's no need to condemn everyone against their will by forcing a vaccine that hasn't cleared stage 3 testing on everyone. Also, based on that alone, it's ridiculous to label someone who is looking at the numbers and shows hesitancy, as an idiot or worse, which is what is happening in America and abroad. I have faith in vaccines that have been time-tested and deemed to be reasonably safe for most. Those have even undergone studies that demonstrate who is most at risk from them. There isn't enough evidence for anyone to have the level of faith that we're being forced to accept in this new vaccine family. So it's not unreasonable to have doubts until enough time and tests have been performed to remove them. Shutting down doctors who ask questions, is shutting down science itself, which doesn't help my doubts. Science is not afraid to field questions...politicians on the other hand...well, they're running the science now.

"Some took phizer, others took moderna. No j&j."

So, your family was of the original 48...? You and nearly every other anti-vaxxer imgflipper here has had "I know someone who had clots..."

"... What still has some people worried is the possibility of blood clots developing – a condition called thrombosis with thrombocytopenia syndrome (TTS) – with the one-shot Johnson & Johnson (Janssen) vaccine...

...Back in April, U.S. federal health regulators recommended a pause in Johnson & Johnson distribution while they investigated reports of the rare side effect impacting women ages 18 to 48....

... Still the numbers are small. As of Sept. 1, more than 14.3 million doses of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine have been given in the United States, and the CDC and FDA have identified 45 confirmed reports of people who later developed TTS..."

Pfizer has been developing vaccines since 1882. Deaths as a result of vaccine injection are equally rare. Your argument is invalid.

Still though, waiting for right wingers to do their Facebook "research" on aeronautics or even looking up the political history of the airline they are flying.

Not this vaccine. And I posted all I needed to with regard to death-by-flying statistics. Y'all don't both reading anything, even if it's taken straight from the CDC, unless it confirms your bias, so why bother researching for you? VAERS has a reported 15,000 deaths relating to the vaccine. Everyone thought that was a good metric of how things were going..until it became political. Now you just claim 'fake news' for everything you don't agree with...just like the "righties".

Now we just have to wait for the long-term studies to examine these cases. If those many deaths were reported on planes in just 8 months...no one would be flying and people would be looking into it much harder.

Challenge:

Name one vaccine that has long term lasting effects (which were detrimental to the health of the patient) beyond six months that were evident only after the six month period and whose use was continued.

Also your 1500 number is legitimately fake news.

"Between December 2020 and July 19th, 2021, VAERS received 6,207 reports of death (0.0018% of doses) among people who got a vaccine,

***but this does not mean the vaccine caused these deaths.***

Doctors and safety monitors carefully review the details of each case to see if it might be linked to the vaccine. There are three deaths that appear to be linked to blood clots that occurred after people got the J&J vaccine. Since we now know how to correctly treat people who develop these blood clots, future deaths related to this very rare side effect can be prevented.

After careful review of the additional data, doctors have decided that there is no evidence at all that the vaccines contributed to the other patient deaths. Nonetheless, the CDC and FDA will continue to investigate every single report of death (and other adverse events) reported to VAERS."

Ya ever feel like you're talking to a brick wall sometimes?

Ayup

It's 15,000 and counting and it's legitimately right on the CDCs page. jeez. And they are right, not you because you're just cutting and pasting their words, but causation hasn't been determined absolutely. But neither was almost one third of the covid deaths reported. Anyone dying with covid was being recorded as dying "from" covid...but ya didn't care about causation then. You're not even citing the most recent weekly report. It's like I said..."fake news" is all you know when it comes to your bias. Even the numbers you supplied demonstrate that the deaths are about 50 times deadlier than the influenza vaccine. The problem, and I stated this, is that studies need to be hastened on this because of the vast discrepancy between this vax and the others they follow. The incidents out pace all the other vaccinations even when adding them all up for a whole decade. That alone should warrant caution. Problem is, y'all want to get happy sticking unproven vaxxes in people even when the numbers are trending in the danger zone without any regard to people who have hesitancy...blacks being the number one group here. If one plane a day was dropping out of the sky we wouldn't be waiting on years of study to find out what's wrong.

"but causation hasn't been determined absolutely. But neither was almost one third of the covid deaths reported. Anyone dying with covid was being recorded as dying "from" covid.."

In the sources that I used (worldometer.org) it is stated that deaths recorded as "COVID" are not deaths which are a result of other causes of death while having COVID (Myocardial infraction, ischemia, as a result of cardiovascular complications, etc) are not listed. However, if someone dies from cardiopulmonary complications as a result of suffering from COVID, the cause of death is never "COVID" it is always the effects that COVID causes. You don't die from COVID, you die from hypoxia, the lack of oxygen in the blood.

The FDA said: “A review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records, has not established a causal link to COVID-19 vaccines.”

There is, however, a plausible causal relationship, as the CDC documents , between Johnson & Johnson’s Janssen COVID-19 vaccine and blood clots with low platelets - a rare and serious adverse event that has caused three deaths, according to the CDC.

In your plane analogy, you're saying that this plane is new, even though it's gone through proper FAA testing and inspection, is killing people.

When in fact, out of the millions of sorties, it has only crashed 3 times due to design failure. However, there have been more deaths due to extenuating circumstances (storms, pilot failure, etc.)

Left wing has always trusted the CDC judgement. When Trump pushed for vaccine by election right wing cheered and mocked the left for how once Biden got elected, we would be pro-vaccine. This wasn't the case, we still waited for FDA approval. It was only after Biden got elected that the right wing shifted to "NO VACCINE!"

By the way, what's the difference between emergency approval for a vaccine and a formal approval?

Oh...and to your silly challenge. Every vax has killed people, so every vax has a really long-term bad effect on some...and they are still being used. People die from influenza vax every year. They're just dying in greater percentages with this new covid vax.

That's not the challenge, they gotta survive for six months first. (As most side effects don't show up after six weeks, let alone six months. Try again. I recognize it's a silly challenge. However, your attempt at answering it was even more silly.