I think it does more harm than good. Thoughts?

I've heard and fully believe that both have to put in what they feel is 60/40 on effort, or maybe even more. I also feel that today's culture sees marriage as a novelty, something you do when it "feels right" and are able to cancel or trade in whenever you want to. The reality is, many lose everything in the wake of a divorce, and unfortunately the children if any are involved catch a lot of the collateral damage. And that only propagates the concept of divorce.

A few add-ins: (1) Generally speaking, children will feel better if their parents agree to divorce rather than fight with each other. (2) I completely second your effort thing, you'll always think you're pulling all the weight, but you need to understand the other persons' POV. Relationships aren't a current bringing two people together, they're two people swimming through a current to be together.

Thanks for contributing to the discussion.

1. I think if there's serious reason like abuse or infidelity and the person is showing no signs of wanting to change then by all means, better to leave that relationship than plow through while the family suffers. But it begs the question why did they get married in the first place? The signs of an instability early in a relationship should clue a person in that marriage won't work either. If it's because the couple are falling out of love then they need to make more effort for the sake of the kids, I come from a divorced household, it wreaks havoc for decades to come for those kids.

2. I like your current analogy. Marriage is 2 imperfect beings struggling together because they love the other person enough to not give up when the going gets tough.

I agree on all these points but your math is confusing me. You think each person only puts in 60 or 40% who decides which percentage the other is putting in? Why not 80/20 or 99/1?

I dont think the math is really the important part, the point is that each individual should put in what they personally feel is more than 50% of the relationship effort...if 2 people combined makes 100%, then each individually would be putting in 120% of their half. Again, it's the principle of spouse before self no matter how you want to quantify it.

Ah yes, now I get it. Yes, if you go into marriage thinking only what you're going to get out of it, someone will eventually get fed up and leave. It's about both spouses giving of themselves for the benefit of the other and in that generosity love will blossom and survive any storm.

It's like you said exactly what I meant to say, only replacing all the words with ones i wouldn't have chosen...lol, i think you're pickin' up what I'm puttin' down though ;)

Glad we're finally getting somewhere, lol

Have you actually been married?

Yes, actually. And I can't say it's been a walk in the park but we have God at the center and our faith and desiring the good of the other has gotten us through the tough times.

Have you actually been married?

I'm currently married, yes, and have been for going on 12 years now :)

15 years. I've actually considered divorce. Considering divorce. I can tell you that it's a hard decision not made lightly... I'm trying to fix what is wrong with my marriage - spending more time with my wife, talking to her about what I need and what she needs, trying to work out personality differences. I'm unhappy and she's unhappy. Neither of us wants this... but it's a real possibility.

I'm starting therapy soon to try to talk over some of my thoughts on the subject with a third neutral party. I've invested in highly recommended self-help books and shared them with my wife. I've cut myself off from the world for a whole week just to focus on my marriage... and I keep coming back to the feeling that I don't want to be in this marriage anymore. And it terrifies the hell out of me.

I think there is a knee-jerk reaction against divorce in our society. YES there are individuals who throw away their marriages on a whim. Are they the majority? I honestly don't think so. I suspect that people who divorce have to make hard decisions about whether they want to go through with it... and I suspect most try hard to fix the problems that brought them to consider divorce.

Abuse (verbal and physical), neglect, personality differences, infidelity (however it's defined in the relationship) - all of these are valid reasons to get a divorce. I think to say that the partners didn't put forward 100% is disingenuous and over-simplifies the complexities of marriage. Nobody from outside my marriage can tell me what it's like to be married to my wife - my relationship with her is my own. And I can't tell you what your relationship is like or second-guess the failings or strengths of your relationship.

I'm sorry to hear you're struggling but good for you to keep up the fight, as long as your wife is also putting in the same or more effort to save your marriage. That's what I mean by each giving 100%. I'm not saying it's better for the couple to be miserable or a family to suffer by staying together, I often wonder why my grandma didn't divorce her alcoholic husband who abused her and my mom. All the situations you stated as valid reasons for divorce mean one or both of the people involved did not put in all their effort at improving themselves, a husband and wife should be willing to make sacrifices everyday, should do acts of kindness everyday to show their love, should not take the other person for granted. It's hard, really hard to live with the same person day in and day out. Perhaps what's needed is a better understanding of what marriage truly is, less emphasis and time spent planning the perfect wedding and more spent on making sure the marriage will really work. I hope things improve for you and your wife. My thoughts and prayers are with you. Thanks for visiting this stream and giving your input.

I have this feeling that you and I won't agree on much - especially considering our interaction in another thread. However, I do appreciate your well-wishes. Thank you.

Sorry to hear about your struggle friend...although I'm not in a position to consider divorce my life and yours are very different and I won't judge any of your circumstances based on mine. My dad got a divorce before I was born and it was the right move for him. My mother-in-law got a divorce a couple years ago and it was the right move for her. I'm glad to hear that you are pursuing therapy and counseling before committing to divorce as a last resort, and I sincerely hope that you are able to overcome your challenges! Your wife of course will have to be committed to any sort of healing as well, but if you both care enough to try then you've got a chance.

When I said each must put in more than their share, when it comes down to it my opinion is that each partner does put in 100% of their individual effort. The point I was after was that if each has the approach that they put in more than their fair share, but also recognize that their partner shares the effort, it generates a mental state that sets the relationship up for success. This is a generalization, and it doesn't apply to all relationships...you're absolutely correct on that. But, how much gravitas can one give to a comment left down in the threads of a meme site?

Personally, you have my support and prayers for your marriage, and your well-being. I genuinely hope that you are able to overcome this, and whatever the outcome I hope that you are able to find peace and happiness in your life. All human beings deserve that. Thanks for sharing, let me know if you need anything.

Quote: "But, how much gravitas can one give to a comment left down in the threads of a meme site?"

As much gravitas as put into it, I would say. It isn't the location that matters, it's the thoughtfulness of the discussion.

I appreciate your support. Thank you.

[image deleted] Honestly, marriage nowadays is a crapshoot if you’re a man. The threat of losing half of everything is always looming if the marriage doesn’t work out. And the benefits? Some tax stuff and social acceptance. Marriage just isn’t worth it unless you know 100% for sure they’re the one.

I'm not sure divorce is a pleasant situation for women to be in either. There's more benefits than being able to file your taxes together, but society has lost sight of the true purpose and without a common goal for the couple then yea, it's pretty pointless. I think the throwaway attitude is in due to couples deciding to live together before marriage and being sexually active before committing to one person.

I'm not saying it's necessarily pleasant for women, but odds are if a couple gets divorced, the woman is going to keep the kids, the house, and half of the family's net worth after that, as well as child support. Meanwhile the man is exiled to some depressing apartment or couch surfing while he tries to rebuild his life while paying exorbitant amounts in child support, and if they get behind on that child support, they can lose things like the ability to obtain government licenses like a driver's license. If you're lucky, maybe you can see your kids, but that's all you really can look forward to. I 100% agree with you and Thparky that if you get married, you ought to commit 110% to that person, and I 100% plan on sticking to that if I were to ever get married, but that's just not the culture we're in, so I'm not going to put in that risk and cross my fingers. As far as the culture war goes, traditionalism is losing out to hookup culture and hookup culture is going to win out unless traditionalism makes a major pushback.

I'm willing to push back in support of traditional marriage and that's where you can help too if you want to see positive change.

That's the thing though, hookup culture is just so much more satisfying to younger people (and some older people as well) than settling down with one person, especially in cities where the list of potential mates is so much larger. Apps like Tinder have only made this easier. With hookup culture, there's no incentive to stay with just one person if you don't have to, you just get your horny on and part ways when the deed is done. No dealing with relationships, kids, or any of that. Getting people to reject that in favor of one partner when there are so many potential mates is always going to be a hard sell. That's why traditionalism tends to thrive more in more rural communities or when a society mostly adheres to some sort of religion that preaches monotheism and marriage. Traditionalism is still doing relatively fine in rural areas where the mating list is low, but more and more people are losing faith in religion as science and technology takes its place and so have less reason to follow anything the Church preaches. People aren't going to be going back to Church, barring some major catastrophe that makes people lose faith in science and technology, so you really got your work cut out for you. However, there is still a bright light for you. With more and more people leaving cities due to Covid, they are settling in more rural areas and may revert back to more traditional ways of living.

Seriously - I wonder if anyone commenting on this thread have actually been married...

I can't speak for everyone but a few of us have, that's nothing wrong with having an opinion when if you're not experienced in the matter. That's the purpose of this stream, to get people thinking about deep topics. There's no right or wrong answers. My post was elicited by the effect I see on my own family and on society that rampant divorce has on individuals especially children.

I'm not saying you shouldn't have an opinion. I'm saying that your opinion should be informed. To say that there are no right or wrong answers closes the door on facts and personal experiences - which should count for something. Respecting marriage is one thing - but without having actually been in a troubled marriage or listened to someone in a troubled marriage, your opinion lacks any facts to back it up. You say that divorce is rampant, that it puts a strain on the family unit and hurts children. I say that divorce is a necessary evil, that if the parents aren't happy it will affect the children. I say that this problem with divorce is due to fundamental problems within our society that force individuals into one lifestyle, one way of thinking, and unfairly punishes those who stray from expectations.

Experience does indeed give one's opinion more weight but there are various experiences, why should a child who's life has been torn apart by divorce not be given the same value as a struggling couple or even a couple who's not struggling? Every opinion matters, that's what I mean by no right or wrong answers, the topic is pretty subjective. And the facts actually point to the long term negative effects divorce has in individuals especially children.

Well, Jesus said divorce was only allowed because of adultery. So, Biblically, you're wrong.

Well, Jesus did say a lot of wise things... but he didn't live in the 21st century. I tend to think Jesus's divinity is greatly exaggerated, so I'm inclined to think for myself and not rely so heavily on an ancient mistranslated, mistranscribed, and misunderstood text written by fellow human beings. So Biblically wrong or not, my opinions stand.

You are wrong.

I'm not wrong. You're just not comfortable with the facts... but that's okay.

Marriage is not something you can just throw away. It is wrong to do that. Differences and arguments can be settled, but divorce without a valid reason is wrong.

I didn't say that marriage should just be thrown away - but it isn't you or anyone else to judge what is a valid reason. It's something for those within the marriage to figure out. As I said before, you're not involved in my relationship, so you don't know what it's like. I'm not involved in your relationships, so I don't pretend to know what your relationships. Let's not be all high and mighty, resorting to judging each other because, as you would note, it's biblically wrong to do so.

It's not for you to judge what a valid reason is, either.

I have the right to judge for myself.

Only God has the right to judge that because He ordains marriage.

Unfortunately it is sometimes necessary if one of the partners abuses the other.

Yep. And in that case it still means one person is not putting in 100% so my point stands. If both people are treating eachother with respect, sharing the load that comes with marriage and parenting then divorce would not be necessary.

or fifty percent of their stuff

Yeah, people need to respect marriage more. It's a commitment that they should honor, not just something you do because your girlfriend wants it.

Agreed

Have you actually been married?

No, that's just my general opinion about people in society

See my response above.

I did not specify that only married people were allowed to comment. I'm asking for people's thoughts on the topic. Children I believe are most negatively impacted by divorce so by all means they should be able to speak up.