The universe exists. What other evidence do you need?

I ain't seen no evidence.

The argument that morality must have come from somewhere. Humans have empathy. We are fine with meat farms because we don't see what happens. If we see it, we tend to feel guilty or to do something. That behaviour first appeared in Homo Erectus.

The Universe argument. I could go on all day on how illogical it is that some higher being created a universe. I could also go on all day on how the big bang is completely ridiculous. When it comes to the universe, there is no real proof for either theory.

Finally, there is the argument that it makes sense to have a religion because if there is a heaven, you will have a chance at getting into it. To that, I say: What kind of a religion requires you to be part of it to go to heaven? Seriously. Logically, a moral life is all you should need. It's like: To get to heaven, you need to be a good person and live by ethical morals. Also, you need to worship me. A bit messed up if you ask me. There are religions like that, where the only requirements are that you have good morals, and to that I say: If I don't need to believe it to get into heaven, why should I?

"The argument that morality must have come from somewhere. Humans have empathy. We are fine with meat farms because we don't see what happens. If we see it, we tend to feel guilty or to do something. That behaviour first appeared in Homo Erectus."

But where did empathy come from? Empathy is abstract and the Big Bang only accounts for the material world.

"The Universe argument. I could go on all day on how illogical it is that some higher being created a universe. I could also go on all day on how the big bang is completely ridiculous. When it comes to the universe, there is no real proof for either theory. "

What's illogical about a higher being?

"Finally, there is the argument that it makes sense to have a religion because if there is a heaven, you will have a chance at getting into it. To that, I say: What kind of a religion requires you to be part of it to go to heaven? Seriously. Logically, a moral life is all you should need. It's like: To get to heaven, you need to be a good person and live by ethical morals. Also, you need to worship me. A bit messed up if you ask me. There are religions like that, where the only requirements are that you have good morals, and to that I say: If I don't need to believe it to get into heaven, why should I?"

Just to clarify, are you talking about a particular religion (I.E. Christianity, Islam)or just religion in general?

Where did empathy come from? It's a very handy little evolutionary trick. It means that instead of watching people suffer and only caring for the tribe, we now raise some questions about torture, genocide and murder/mutilation. That's why psychopaths tend to commit murder, and the not psychopaths tend to always justify every killing (some killers would only target pedophiles, for example).

The big bang only accounts for the material world because that is all there is. There are intangible thoughts formulated in our brains, and there are actions, that affect others. The mind cannot exist without a brain. A physical brain. And I will say that we don't know everything about brains. We know very little. It makes just as much sense that a higher being created it as the idea that we don't know yet. But if we can already simulate fully random decisions and animal brains in computers, then logically, brains could just be an organ we don't understand yet.

What's so illogical about a higher being. Think about it for a bit. A big thing with no tangible form, but has a tangible impact on the Earth. It created an entire planet in 7 days. It spent one of those days making humans, and one of those days making every other animal. It can end all suffering, but it won't. It consistently breaks its own rules.

Can I improvise and say that a higher being used the big bang to create the physical world???

That's basically the creation story but with more explosions, but yeah

"Where did empathy come from? It's a very handy little evolutionary trick. It means that instead of watching people suffer and only caring for the tribe, we now raise some questions about torture, genocide and murder/mutilation. That's why psychopaths tend to commit murder, and the not psychopaths tend to always justify every killing (some killers would only target pedophiles, for example)."

To be clear, you're saying morality came from evolution?

"The big bang only accounts for the material world because that is all there is. There are intangible thoughts formulated in our brains, and there are actions, that affect others. The mind cannot exist without a brain. A physical brain. And I will say that we don't know everything about brains. We know very little. It makes just as much sense that a higher being created it as the idea that we don't know yet. But if we can already simulate fully random decisions and animal brains in computers, then logically, brains could just be an organ we don't understand yet."

Your stated belief is that only the material world can exist. There is no such thing as *intangible* thought if the material world is all there is. You keep speaking of the mind and thoughts as if they are non-material things separate from the physical brain. Your beliefs do not allow for non-material thoughts. Your stated belief restricts thought to the physical matter of the brain.

Would you say the idea that brains are created by God has merit?

"What's so illogical about a higher being. Think about it for a bit. A big thing with no tangible form, but has a tangible impact on the Earth. It created an entire planet in 7 days. It spent one of those days making humans, and one of those days making every other animal. It can end all suffering, but it won't. It consistently breaks its own rules."

But what laws of logic does the Creation violate? Furthermore, if the material world is all that there is, how are there laws of logic at all? Laws of logic are intangible, abstract, and universal ideas which can't exist if only the material world exists. The same goes for morality. A naturalistic worldview can't explain why there are laws of morality. And to answer your question about why God doesn't end suffering, its because the world was corrupted by evil and God can't end suffering yet, because there needs to be opportunity for people to turn to Him. And sometimes we don't know why bad things happen.

Yes, I am saying morality came from evolution. It makes sense.

I was saying that the idea that brains were created by God can also be disproven.

Because laws of logic are thoughts, and they pretty much control everything. Isn't God omnipotent? He should logically be able to end suffering. Just give millionares empathy, and you have no greed or poverty, as well as stealing. Give psychopaths emotions and stop pedophilia, you got no murder. Very simple steps

At the time, people didn't know why Jesus was crucified. But that was because it was the only way to save us from evil.

Another question I have is why is evil bad if the material world is all that exists? What define good and evil? Morality is abstract, and that isn't allowed of the material world is all that exists.

So what parts would you say "it" broke its own rules.

Thou shall not kill. I would say that one is pretty obvious. God ruthlessly murdered thousands of innocent people.

Ok, but they weren't innocent people though...
Either way for the flood or the events at Sodom and Gomorrah, the people who died were most deserving of it. But I see what your saying though...could it be that he is God and we are humans?

God would have been the perfect being. Whatever he had done would had to have been perfect, us humans would have screwed it up someway or another.

Those rules were put into place for HUMANS not GOD.

Egypt. Plenty of people there probably did wanted the slaves to leave. So, in return, god murdered their firstborn child. Someone who may have been entirely innocent. And if those rules were set in place for us, not God, then how many messed up punishments is he going to come up with? The only part of God that seems decent is Jesus.

The whole reason that happened was because Pharaoh was not letting the Israelite slaves leave Egypt and worship God, so that they can venture out to the promised land. God gave everyone the choice to keep their sons alive by doing specific tasks. In other words, they had the choice to avoid their sons dying. And nobody is considered innocent. EVERYONE has sinned, so saying God killed innocent people is not true.

On the other hand, God IS the ruler of the universe. This gives him authority to make decisions which ordinary human beings are not allowed to make. Just like an earthly Governor or Judge has authority to do some things which ordinary citizens don't have the right to do, God has the authority to do anything, i.e. any type of act. For example, everything belongs to God, so when he takes things from us it is not stealing, but doing what he likes with his own property. Similarly, if God kills people it is not murder, because our lives belong to him.

Note that, as the ruler of the universe God actually kills everyone. All people are mortal, some of them die young, and God is responsible for this state of affairs. Sometimes he does it miraculously in order to make a special point, but more often it he causes it to happen naturally. Before I ask whether I can trust a God who killed the Canaanite children, I first need to ask whether I can trust a God who will kill ME. As Christians, we trust that God is using death as a tool in order to turn us into the people he wants us to become. Partly, we trust him because he came to Earth and died for us, so he isn't asking us to suffer anything which he hasn't gone through himself.

And how do you know that God's intentions are noble?

And why would a benevolent being let torture devices and nuclear bombs be invented. They do no good, and they are absolutely there for murdering, not 'sensible killing', or whatever you call it when God murders someone. I'm just asking why a nice guy would want a monarchy. If it's a case of God designing a universe and Andy being his boss, it makes more sense, but still.

Face it. God is a singular ruler with absolute power, hailed by his followers as kind, generous and amazing, who can end all suffering but won't and is exempt from all of his own rules. If you ask me, that sounds a bit too much like Big Brother

That is where faith comes into play. God knows everything we are going through at this very moment and everything we will go through in the future. He knows the best way to handle every situation so we get the best possible outcome and we need to trust him with that. We need to follow his path and trust that he knows best, because he does.

Now the probably largest question to Christianity, "Why would a loving God allow us to suffer?"

The Christian faith makes sense of the rawness we feel in the face of suffering because it says there is something WRONG with the world. Things are not as they should be. We live in a world in which good and evil are at play on the world stage and in every human being. God is good but evil is also real and has influence in the world for now. So, at first glance it seems that suffering gives us good reason to rule out God. But actually, the opposite is true. It is only IF God exists that our outrage at suffering finds a home.

Exactly. Hailed by his followers as benevolent and kind

Ok...I don't think we are getting each other...

Well it does not look like we are gonna get very far after this. Good talk though, that was quite the discussion.

Cya

byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

lol byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

So what is your point?

God is a bit too much like Big Brother

I fully agree, also what about all the different religions with different gods I want someone to explain that for me

Same reason there are religions. They are a neat little way of answering things and give us hope. Honestly, I can't blame anyone for having a religion. I don't think religious people are in any way stupid. They just think different.

Yes I share the same view I was just wondering how religions explain eachother

Well, in my opinion, Islam, Christianity and Judaism are the same (have a guess why). For the other religions, the more tolerant ones tend to just accept that they think different, while the less tolerant ones tend to go on a crusade to murder everyone else

Seems about right

This is the same as politics. We will never be able to prove that god is real, and we will never be able to prove he is not. (In politics, we will never know what is actually best for our countries.) So why argue about either?

That's one religious man's opinion

I'm a fairy with magical powers. why aren't you worshipping me?

What? Are you just making fun of me for being religious, or what?

you can't prove I am, or that I'm not. it's more of an analogy than mockery

Well, political policies whether we agree with them or not affect us personally as do religion and belief systems. You can't really ignore the fact and it doesn't necessarily have to end in arguments but if a person wants to push a certain idea they should have substantial evidence or reasons why they hold those ideas.

That's a great point! Problem is, different sides of the argument will have different views on what constitutes "substantial evidence..."

Also; when I said "why argue about either," I meant Argue, not Debate. I guess I'm just getting tired of the keyboard saviors and keyboard warriors lol

The existence of God can't be proven, but there can be strong evidence for it.

No one here has seen my parents, you could claim they don't exist but logic points to the fact I had to come from somewhere. How is everything we see any different? Big bang could have happened but what or who made it happen? For every effect there is a cause. You can't hold wind or even see it but the effects and evidence of its existence is clear no one questions that. I can't get a clear answer from any athiest yet.... maybe because they don't have the answer (hint the evidence is everywhere)

I find this “I logically came from parents” completely hilarious because of how so completely incorrect it really is. Of course logic dictates you have parents. Childbirth is a well documented phenomenon that has proven that all children have to have been born from when two parents had sex. That doesn’t mean therefore the universe was created by God. How the universe was created is not verified fact like how childbirth is as it has not had such a level of verifiable documentation. There are other theories about how the universe was created that don’t involve a creator being, like the Big Bang theory which does have some scientific evidence pointing to it being true, as well as more wacky theories like the White Hole theory which is basically universes budding off of other universes.

TLDR; you having parents doesn’t mean god exists.

"where is your God?" Me: "Pan your view 360 degrees and you'll see. You'll see his creation in all of his glory and grace."

I think we have more evidence God does exist than they will ever have evidence that he doesn't. Besides scientifically you can't prove the nonexistence of something.

I have this entire notecard I had for almost 3 years now. It's facts and statements that prove not only there's evidence of God but it's more reasonable to believe in the One True God rather than the odds based only on theories not yet proven:
The Bible is God's

Divine Revelation:
A) Historical Evidence
B) Archeological Evidence
C) Text reliability- The earliest manuscript of the Life of Christ and God
D) Evidence of Ressurection- Dead then seen alive; 500 people saw: hallucination would be impossible
[for the math parts, I don't remember what exactly it meant] ~ E) Fulfilled prophecies- Many prophecies told and fulfilled; specifically about the Messiah
300 prophecies - - For 8 = 1 in 10^17 chance, 48 = 1 in 10^157 chance, FULFILLED Hundreds!!!

God's Existence:
- 2nd Timothy: "All manuscripture is inspired by God." (takes more faith to believe in the odds than the Creator)
- Laws of Logic, Nature: Constance of things
- Fine-tuning: only certain conditions for life
- Morality(right & wrong): where would it come from?
- Cosmos(universe): energy can't be created nor destroyed; it had to come from somewhere.

a lot more evidence if there is a god show me

Those are stars, not God

We're literally walking on, breathing in, looking at evidence from the minute we're born. Can you tell me how the universe is proof that God doesn't exist?

Yes, I actually can use the universe to show evidence that god doesn’t exist. In the background of the universe, there exists background radiation that scientists have calculated came from the Big Bang. This puts more evidence into the Big Bang theory most likely being the correct theory. The Big Bang theory has scientific data corroborating its existence. The Creationism theory has a bunch of people with nothing but faith that it is true. You tell me which one is more believable.

What caused the Big Bang?

Nobody knows for sure what caused the Big Bang, but science has some educated theories:

https://www.livescience.com/65254-what-happened-before-big-big.html

https://www.quantamagazine.org/physicists-debate-hawkings-idea-that-the-universe-had-no-beginning-20190606/

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/10/191031154921.htm

https://www.space.com/31192-what-triggered-the-big-bang.html

the big bang couldnt have happended councadently. look at life how complicated and your eyes your hands. what amazing design but there must be a designer. There are many things that could exist. So much is possible. There must be a neccesry being who first decided what would exist.
The world is in full motion, for example, the earth’s rotation the tides of the ocean the movements of the planets and so on. But no inanimate thing can move by itself. There must be a prime mover.
Human beings constantly evaluate things are either good or bad, true or false, beautiful or not beautiful. But there must be an ultimate beauty an ultimate truth or an ultimate good.By whose standard we measure things.

Well if your not exactlly sure about the Big Bang, how can you say God doesn't exsist

How can you say he does?

Also I am legitimately curious about this but what does your religion say about others and so on

It says we were all made equal and even when we do bad, God still loves us

i dont see it can you point it out

I have a notecard I've been holding onto for several years. Of course, you'll have to do research but here's some stuff you could look into.

The Bible is God's

Divine Revelation:
A) Historical Evidence
B) Archeological Evidence
C) Text reliability- The earliest manuscript of the Life of Christ and God
D) Evidence of Ressurection- Dead then seen alive; 500 people saw: hallucination would be impossible
[for the math and exponents, I don't remember what exactly it meant] ~ E) Fulfilled prophecies- Many prophecies told and fulfilled; specifically about the Messiah
300 prophecies - - For 8 = 1 in 10^17 chance, 48 = 1 in 10^157 chance, FULFILLED Hundreds!!!

God's Existence:
- 2nd Timothy: "All manuscripture is inspired by God." (takes more faith to believe in the odds than the Creator)
- Laws of Logic, Nature: Constance of things
- Fine-tuning: only certain conditions for life
- Morality(right & wrong): where would it come from?
- Cosmos(universe): energy can't be created nor destroyed; it had to come from somewhere.

I love your list but most athiests wouldn't accept the bible as proof of anything. In fact some will even try to use it to prove He doesn't exist. Go figure. God doesn't exist and this book that we think is bunk proves it. Things that make you go huh.

That's the thing. If they think the Bible isn't true, fine, that's their decision but, THEIR science has historical and archeological proof that most, if not all of the Bible is factual.

ok

Lol. Your username: goblins are real but God is not.

The universe is proof enough that God exists. If you can't see it it's because you are choosing not to see it.

How is the universe proof he doesn't exist?

you are actually pretty correct if there is infinite stars there has to be a higher Person/God that created all of it. and on Genesis 17 when Abraham was 99 years old God came to him and said " I am God almighty , and told him how many stars are in the sky there are your decedents.

that's evidence for the Big Bang if we're using your shoddy logic

There's a lot of evidence for God, but for now, I"ll give you the strongest ones, which are morality and logic. We both agree on morality and logic and I think we can both definitively say that stealing and murder is wrong, or if a statement is contradictory its false. But here's the question; where did morality and logic come from? the Big Bang can only account for the material world, it can't explain abstract concepts like morality.

Where would you say morality came from and why?

I'll take that, that is a valid point