They say many things, but do you agree?

Depends on what you're reading. For example, if all you're reading is stuff like Captain Underpants, you're probably better off gaming.

Never heard of Captain Underpants, but the name gives me a kind of idea 🤣
Of course, it also depends on the kind of game maybe...?

It's a kids book series that was pretty popular over here in the US. Basically fart jokes and toilet humor.

I've googled it, and well, yeah, I guess I got the basic idea now... Since I'm not from the US (I'm from the Netherlands), I may have missed it...

https://i.imgflip.com/3pinb4.jpg

Whatever brings you the most joy

depending. i really like reading, but i also like games. i dont see why people often say that, you cant learn from games, and video games cause violence. did you know, that when books first were popularized, people treated them like video games, they said it rot your brains, and was a waste of time.

I'm not surprised the same has been said about books. The same has been said about television, as well.

When it comes to the "causing violence" discussion, it actually depends on the gamer. Some gamers turn violent by violent games. When I feel really really angry I play violent games as killing virtual people is better than hurting real people, so I can let my desire to use violence go... So violent games can actually help against violence as much as it can cause it.

hmm

And what do you mean by that?

i was thinking. XD. I do not think video games cause violence. more like violence causes video games XD. anway on a serious note, video games arent bad for ya, and ppl need to chill lol.

It's always a debate. Some people told me that Anders Breivik inspired his attack on Utoya on computer games. Of course, truth in that particular case is more likely he was already planning the attack and that computer games gave him a good vision HOW to execute it. I know there are people who cannot really deal with violent stuff (regardless of the medium that brings it) and get inspired to use violence, but they would probably also get violent from violent movies and more stuff like that. At least I do not think video games are more to blame than any other medium... ;)

yeah, i can agree with that. you seem like a very intelligent person, nice having a conversation with you.

I'm not sure how clever it is to call myself intelligent, but I am a thinker, yes. Of course I am a (hobbyist) game developer ( https://tricky.gamejolt.io/dyrt_net is a game of mine in development), so I am of course defending my own case a bit. But I also write novels (in Dutch), so well, defending books is also in my interest. And if you read my replies to other comments here, you can see that I think there's something good in both, for different reasons.

Thanks you for your assessment, though 😉

aye, im a learning game dev. key word learning, lol, not to good yet.

We all gotta learn the trade from the basics... Nothing to be ashamed of ;)

video games don't cause violence, even violent ones. if violent video games cause violence, violent books should too. like, i'm assuming gory horror books should make teens violent if gory horror video games make teens violent.

i mean, just google "gore-filled books" and it'll come up with about 13,200,000 results.

You learn nothing from video games but the level of your patience and temperance.

A book on the other hand is a product of study by students, observers, witnesses, and experts. Not all books are for learning as some are clearly for entertainment but the following types, are:

A book on Biology (Bio: Life; ology, study of), and you will learn the development, and the essential inner working of physical life.

A book on Theology (Theo: God; ology, Study of) and you will learn about who and what God is, and what He teaches.

A book on Logic (Logos: Word) teaches you to thiink, speak, and conclude critically, rationally, and soundly.

A book on Mathematics (basic math, Algebra, Geometry, ) teaches you how to count and calculate efficiently and effectively.

A book on History shows you what had happened before (the causes, the catalists, the actors, and the consequences), which resulted in what is now our world today; both good and bad.

"he who does not know history is doomed to repeat it"

Today, you have a wealth of information in the library, bookstore, and online (right at your finger tips) unprecedented in history whereas before, only the wealthy and the powerful have the means to access it.

In no way am I discouraging you to end playing your video games. but with such availabilty of knowledge it would be a shame if you do not at least see what there.

Really? So that explains why my English is so terrible. I thought I learned it from trying to follow the story lines in adventure games which were all in English (while my native language is Dutch). And I should also note that a lot of games have been developed solely with the purpose of education in mind. So I cannot agree that you won't learn anything from gaming. Especially story based games such as point-and-click adventures and jRPG or even Visual Novels (although the latter is debatable as "game") sometimes contain pretty wise lessons just as books telling a fictional story. And some puzzles in puzzle games are based on the subjects you just mentioned.

What games also have in common is that there are "bad ones" only with commercial value behind them, but then again, as OlypianProduct already mentioned, bad books are also there.

Now I am both a novel writer and game developer, so it is in my interest to defend both ;)
A novel contains large amounts of text and forces the reader to keep into the story or they can't understand it no more, and this trains your reading skills, even if the story is only a joke. In games text always comes in small portions, and is quite often even spoken. However, action games can train your reaction speed and coordination, and puzzle and strategic games can train your logic thinking, and all that is important too.

I do agree with your quote about history, but I do need to note, there are books lying about history or leaving out vital facts implying different truths for their propaganda of today (some politicians do this in their messages in general). Are those books good to read?

So in my own point of view I think reading and gaming are both of value, but both in different ways. I'm not saying you are entirely wrong... I am just asking to see the flip side of the coin ;)

Hi JeroenBroks, I didn't know you wrote novels and also a game developer! Here I thought you were posting this as a teenager, wondering about the value of books vs video games!

You are quite right on the fact that there are video games that are educational. That also reminded me of a game I play online, called "Free Rice", it is actually a game made by the World Food Program based in the United States. The object of the game is that with every question answered correctly, a rice bag (I've forgotten of what amount) is donated. The questions themselves has tto do with countries, languages, and other subjects.

For example, what's the capitol of Morocco? What does Fjord mean? Where is Uganda, and what is an Adverb, etc

https://freerice.com/

But with that said, are such games popular amongst teenagers and young adults? Games like Fortnite, and Call of Duty, are so popular that I thought only preteens and younger play educational games, and not by choice.

As for history, sadly there seemed to no longer be unbiased books. It's like the news media, there's no longer a politically neutral medium, and it there are, then it is unheard of and can be suspected of having it's own bias.

Hard to tell from the internet, eh? I'm actually 44.... I have been gaming since I was a teen though. I will check out that Free Rice later (I've food on my stove now). Yeah, I do neither for a living, although I hope I can make my (fantasy) novels to a bigger audience, but finding a good editor to help me on that is hard. As I live in the Netherlands, I've once played a game given out by the water management to teach kids the simplistic basics of water management, since is, since my country cannot exist without proper water management not so odd, eh? And I've also played some games in which you are on the road, but in which you must respect all traffic rules (penalty points when you drive too fast, or through red light or stuff like that). And let's not forget the American game "Police Quest" designed by a retired cop (and developed by Sierra) in which you have to follow REAL U.S. police procedures in arresting people and going undercover (as they were in the 1980s, so the game is by now a bit outdated, but still).

I never played Fortnite and Call of Duty also never appealed to me. Still I know that even a silly game as Pacman can help you in total overview and quick reaction... I believe Fortnite was an FPS, so yes, bad is it may be, it still contributes. I must admit though that overtime many games have only been released with the idea of making money in mind and not with bringing quality. Pains me a bit. I was actually as a teen a big fan of Sierra, and playing for example Police Quest a lot, not even realizing how much I learned about actual police work in the process.

Well when it comes to history and politics, nobody is 100% unbiased. So you'll always have to think for yourself and be willing to check some things out yourself. Of course some things are hard to sort out. I mean king Lucius Tarquinius Superbus was hated in his own time, so only negative stuff was written about him (he was the last king of Rome before it became a republic ruled by the Senate), so historians have to guess how much is true and how much is untrue. There was no film in that time. What does pain me is indeed that the media bringing news that is pretty close to the truth are deemed bringers of fake-news, even when they can present irrefutable evidence of the facts presented. But then again, if people do not want to believe the truth, no medium, whether it be the internet, computer games, books, newspaper or whatever will help no matter how unbiased they are. ;)

Hi Jeroen, I'm awfully sorry for the delay. I well note youir response. I can't easily tell whether one is as old as KewKew, or one as youngas ProductionDuck(?). What often tips me off to their age is how sophisticated their memes are. The simpler it is, the younger they are. Yours, it appeared to me that you are young based on what it appeared to me as a very simple question,

Ah you live in the Netherlands You're the first Dutch I've met. :) I see why you think video games are not that bad. Some games are educational, maybe I should look for one... but I don't often see them at a glance. All I see is Mario Brothers, Final Fantasy(?) some Zombie themed games, Call of Duty,... which is why I have a more negative view of video games. I doubt very much that ther are educational games as popular as what I've mentioned. Police Quest... I would love to play that game although I don't think I can overlook the outdated animation! Still, learning how to actually do police work excites me

Yes, sadly no one is 100% unbiased. I didn't know that about Lucius... actually, I've never really learned about Roman history prior to its time as a Republic. Then again, it's quite shortened simply because it's part of learning ancient world history (from the Hittites where the first writing system was discovered to the fall of the Roman empire.). Those of us into history already know the sad truth that "History is written by the Victors". In Lucius' case, he was the loser I suppose. I can't really tell the difference between objective news and honest ones anymore. I do see commercials of alternative news but they're clearly biased. they're either partisan or conspiracy peddlers. And, sadly yes, it wouldn't matter to those who believe what they want to believe.,

And when it comes to Police Quest: "You have the right to remain silent. All you say may be used against you in court of law. You have the right to an attorney. If you cannot afford an attorney one can be assigned to you, if you wish". The rights an American cop has to tell a suspect during arrest. I know these because of Police Quest. When I played the game I had no idea the game was designed by a real cop... I found that out about 30 years later. Hahaha! Back then I was just thrilled about being cop arresting drug criminals (as you will have to jump into a drug deal halfway the game arresting the dealers, but if you do not follow the procedures right, your arrest WILL fail).

Now I do remember loads of bad things have been said about watching television. But then again, some programs are really informative. And some shows look like they can hardly be taken seriously. Take the Mythbusters for example. Adam Savage and Jamie Hyneman turn the show into a big laugh, and yet they do take a serious approach in testing if scientific myths are true or not, and in the process they interested so many teenagers to do a scientific training, and a Dutch university even invited them to give them an "eredoctoraat" which is a recognition of honor for people who meant a great deal to science. Adam actually came to the Netherlands to receive it and had a meeting with the (back then) Dutch queen Beatrix.

Where both TV and games, and even books can become bad, may of course be if they are propagandistic or if you watch TV, read books, play games, too much, turning it into an addiction.

Unfortunately games today are specifically developed to be addicting so you'll buy a lot of DLCs... For me that has nothing to do with gaming, but just with swindling the money out of your pocket. But then again, if you take in mind how many bad movies/books there are on the market solely set up to make sure the money will flow.... It makes me cry sometimes.

You've learnt all of that in one game! Mavelous! I wished they continue that game so that future Officers needn't learn it all in one go at the academy. I'm not a Police Officer, but in my learning I've come to appreciate the Law Enforcement It was a lot simpler then, perhaps before the 21st century as they need only to learn about how to effectively and lawfully conduct arrests and win gun fights but as more and more controversial shootings makes the headlines, the cadets must learn more and more.

They must now know the law almost as much as lawyers. They are now heavily scrutinized. You that in America, you're innocent until proven guilty.... since then it's the reverse with the Police. They must write an After Action Report, take administrative leave, and cannot go back on "the Beat" until the shooting is ruled as a "Good Shoot", meaning, the shooting was justified.

This is understandable because there were in the past, Police Officers who did abuse their power, but those bad apples have ruined it for the majority of good Officers so now their job is made so much harder than before. The possible dangers they faced the minute they walk ouft of their door, traumatic things they see on the job, the ungratefulness of the people they meet, the criminals they encounter, all must be done with un-natural level of patience and restraint. The pay they receive doesn't do justice to the service they give. We get to enjoy everyday life because of them as they get paid merely 30k a year.

Anyways, that's the one side you rarely hear from our perspective, the Blue Lives Matter side. All you do hear, is that a Police Officer shot an unarmed man, and the story sounded like it was an unjustified, likely a racially motivated shooting.

There is really far more to the story than that.

I've been told that in the U.S. some cops where actually being trained with that game. The game's story has also been set up to show you multiple sides of police works. You start the game as a traffic cop, you know just writing tickets for speeding and driving through red light, that sort of stuff. A traffic accident that later turns out to be no accident but murder (confirmed by a witness you have to interogate). Due this this you'll later get promoted to the narcotics, as you were the first cop to see that murder related to a drugs network, and then you have to catch drugs criminals. You also get into a wild pursuit of one of the drug gang's henchmen who is very extremely lethally aggressive. And in the end you gotta infiltrate into the drugs gang, by going undercover and in the disguise of a smooth criminal looking for action in order to lure the leader of that gang. The game also lets you interrupt a criminal trial in court in order to prevent a very aggressive lawyer to bail out a criminal. The game is pretty interesting. The maximum score of the game is 245 points, and I guess if you can manage to get that, you are the "perfect cop".

I know cops in the U.S. are known to be pretty violent in their approaches. And trust me, the accusations of racism in the U.S. police did even reach me here in the Netherlands, as the stories are on the Dutch news as well. Of course, this game was solely about a cop's job, once the suspect is brought in court, a cop's job mostly ends, except for doing some statements, I guess. And yeah, criminals can be very extremely dangerous especially when facing cops. During the game you have to arrest a criminal named Marvin Hoffman, and one mistake and he kills you immediately.

Now I gotta say my own experiences with cops were terrible. I know they do important and dangerous work, but that doesn't give them the right to be rude to me or to treat me like an dumb idiot. I once had to deal with cops who didn't want to take my report for bicycle theft, but without their cooperation my insurance wouldn't pay out. Took me 6 hours to make them realize that, as they didn't allow me to finish my sentences. So despite my fully realizing how dangerous cop work is... I did lose my respect for them... Dutch cops at least... I never had to deal with cops abroad...

Hi Jeroen, I'm sorry that you've had bad experiences with the Police. it is a shame that they didn't take seriously a bike theft until six hours later! That is awful. Is that a common experience by the citizens of your country?

With the violent approach you've heard and seen in the news... I don't know how the American Police have been portrayed but from my perspective, they have to gain compliance before it gets dangerous.

If you've been hearing that a lot of the American Police Officers have been shooting a lot of unarmed people, then as said before, there:

"Action is always faster than Reaction"

A police officer has only a split second to disern between a sudden pull of a phone and a handgun from the person's pocket. By the time they recognize what object s/he was holding , the police officer would have already been shot. Thus, the police have no choice but to shoot. And so the news will spin it as "Unarmed man shot by Police", and the only thing that would clear him/her is a body camera.

If you have time, please go to Youtube and type "Donut Operator" and you'll see a list of the many shootings, including well publicised shootings, and you'll hear his commentary on why such incident is either just or unjustified.

I can't speak for all the Dutch, but I've heard more people who don't have much respect for the police anymore due to similar experiences, yes.

When it comes to the action is faster than reaction quote, that is certainly true.What I do know is that the US Police, is (just like the police in many other countries) only allowed to shoot when the situation is lethally critical, which is in 99% of the cases when the suspect tries to fire at them. Something I also know thanks to the Police Quest games. In Police Quest I, the situation never arises, and in Police Quest II, there are a few situations in which you must shoot, but you must then wait until the situation is as such at you (or somebody you must protect) is about to be shot. (Shooting at the wrong moment will therefore always cause a "game over"). Of course many violence experts I've heard (and even spoken) blame the 2nd amendment, as the US police can never know if you are armed or not, and must be 100% sure and if they are not, assume that you are armed. Although I do agree that getting rid of the 2nd amendment (or at least reading it properly as the 2nd amendment grants no rights at all. It only bans infringing rights) may decrease the violence used by US cops, that alone will not completely rule it out. As you may know in the Netherlands guns are outlawed, and yet there is a recent incident of cops using this technique https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rear_naked_choke on a suspect who died as a result. That was a rather big case in court I tell ya.

I do keep it in mind though, when it comes to U.S. cops being either needlessly violent or racist (or being accused thereof) you have a news item and when U.S. cops do their job the way they're supposed to do, it won't reach the world news, so it's always hard to tell how people are known to be and how they really are. Those can be two different things. Now I've never visited the US myself. Some people who did, did warn me to avoid cops. Of course, you can never tell what to take seriously.

Now I know that in the Netherlands cops are instructed to shoot at the suspects legs if they really have to shoot, but are not fully sure if the suspect is dangerous. This will prevent a kill. If a cop did actually shoot somebody to death, it will mostly lead to a long procedure to find out if the situation was just, and cops can actually end up in jail if they killed for the wrong reasons even when on duty and the kill was done as a cop and not as a person.

The Final Fantasy series are however a series that always relied on story telling. Final Fantasy X in particular has a very extremely strong story, and its playable characters all have really strong personalities and you see them take much for granted at the start of the game, but all of them have learned some very important lessons once you face the final boss. And the fun part is, that the game never really gets into lecturing, it's just how the story develops. The story can be seen as a kind of a movie with some playable elements in it. For games who love a good plot in games, I'd really recommend that particular installment. The game actually makes a statement about society, even though it takes place in a fantasy world. However in the past fantasy worlds were often used to criticize the real world, but in fantasy form some distance is created saving the author's ass, as critics to society could get you burned alive (The story is Reynard the Fox is a notable example of this. Using animals as using humans was bound to cause trouble for sure, as the story directly targets royalty and religion in the statements it makes). Final Fantasy X is sometimes bashed down due to its main character Tidus, but that's because the developers took a really mature approach on designing him (and with mature I don't mean "violent" or "pornographic", but in the way he develops as a person during the course of the game. From arrogant teenager into a heroic man, but in a way that you may immediately notice).

Now with Mario you may not really learn about things about history or see a statement, but then again, in Mario you need quick reflexes and training your reflexes can be good for when you drive a car or in sports or even when you are an adult in overseeing children. Then again mother nature invented playing in general in order to make you learn. All young animals who play do so in order to learn.

Now being a novel writer myself I do see the important of reading a book too. If the story of Final Fantasy X was in a book in stead of a game, you'd be forced to focus on the written text and therefore train your ready abilities, which can be handy when you need to read official letters, or scientific articles etc. In a game, since Final Fantasy is RPG, it trains your logic thinking as the combat is turn based and thus based on strategy.

You know I've never played that much video games to affirm your experience and observations. I have only 6 video games (of which I mostly play). The games I do play most howerver are board games on the internet. So if there are games out there that are deliberately milking the money out of the consumers, then.. wow....

Wit that said, there is a benefit to playing video games because of the fine motor reflexes needed to win the gamen One can actually burn calories with game plays, but the question is how much?

As for games like Final Fantasy... wow.... Well, reading is part of the game play and logical thinking I suppose.... I don't have those games to know however.

Well Final Fantasy X tells the story of how Tidus, a professional BlitzBall player, playing the finals of a bit championship gets snatched by a monster named Sin and is taken to a world he's never seen before. Here he learns that his hometown Zanarkand was destroyed 1000 years ago, implying he was sent 1000 years into the future. He joins Yuna, a summoner, a kind of priest within there religion of Yevon, on her pilgrimage to defeat Sin, however as he journeys with her, and dares to ask critical questions which makes Yuna thinking and as the story goes on, you'll discover that nothing is the way you think it is. The story makes a clear statement about religion, propaganda, but also about racism (as the Al Bhed race is hated during the story, simply because they are different), hypocrisy and many more things. So that story has been very well thought-out. It actually even serves a bit of an example in how to set a few things up in my own work. Final Fantasy IX also has a very strongly set up story.
Earlier titles in the series do suffer a bit under poor translations from Japanese. More RPG series suffer from that, to be honest. Some of the games I write and publish for free also tell strongly set up stories.

Yes, unfortunately there are "milk-games" out there. It was to happen that the phenomenon "gaming" and the internet would be abused like that some day. Most people with a gaming addiction are mostly into THOSE kind of "games" which I refuse to recognize as such. They give true games a bad name. :(

I do know a story where a fan of flight simulator games was challenged to fly in a real military plane, and who did a better job than any of the trained pilots could and could even teach them a few tricks those pilots didn't know about. I could never verify that story though, so I don't know if it's true. I've never been into flight simulators myself.

I guess, it's always a bit of how you look at things, eh?

You wrote something on my Meme in the The_Think_Tank that is impressive; I'll try to reply to this one but I want to soak in what you've said there that to me appears profound.

I'll talk to you soon!

It really depends. What do you mean by "better"? I really enjoy reading and I really like well written stories and worlds. But nothing quite beats creating your own world(s). I tried writing books, but apparently I enjoy building a world much more than making up a story that is set within it. That's why I like to play video games where you can let your creative juices flow (Minecraft mainly, but I have enjoyed the odd tycoon game without really playing through scenarios though... I like the complete freedom of a sandbox mode). For light entertainment I've played some puzzle games on mobile from time to time but none if those really captured me like creating things does. So, when I'm at home and have some time I'd rather play Minecraft or something along those lines and when I'm on the train or bus I usually have a book with me (just restarted the Peter Grant series, btw). I can't really sit down and read for hours as some people do when there are more creative things I could be doing (which doesn't have to be a computer game, of course).

You use more brain playing video games

I do not dare to take over that statement blindly without consulting some specialists first, but I won't rule it out, either. ;)

:)

I think reading is better. But being an author, it is possible am prejudiced, lol.

Yeah, I am an author too... But I am also an (hobbyist) game developer, so I got interest in both ;)

Nice! :)

Yup, I went blind from resident evil once..

Blind?