Inspired by Octavia in a discussion about whether it is ever ok to lie.

I think the vast majority of times that you lie, even for 'good', it doesn't work out. Look at Santa and the tooth fairy. You're literally lying to your kids. I can't remember what I thought when I learned but it was probably disillusionment.

I am not going to tell my kids about a Santa or Tooth fairy, although I'm not going to knock parents who go that route (I grew up with the Easter Bunny and everything). They will learn about the historic Bishop St. Nicolas and the good he did and why we give gifts. That will be just as special as believing a man in a red suit delivered them.

Good for you. The fable of a magical Sata... sorry, Santa that flies around and breaks into your house probably plants a seed of gullibility in children. Not that I expect seculars to appreciate that at all. But for me, the 9th commandment, or 8th for yours.

And your kids will be smarter for it.

To me even as a child I figured if there was such a thing as Santa why would they're be any poverty in the world? He would be too good hearted and could use his magic to make sure no child was left wanting. But every Christmas I still saw homeless People. Plus who in their right mind would choose to go down chimneys in a flammable suit and beard in the middle of winter when everyone is burning a fire? Lol.

you were a smart kid!

I know your kidding...lol

Kate_the_Vulcan.

LOL just kidding....

Oh silly Christians and their Santy Claus. Every good pagan knows it's Thor in his personage of Father Yule, and He is the spirit of giving, not greed.

Now I've done it.

Sorry, should not have brought politics in! Generally speaking, I'd say it depends...what is the amount of good to be had at the expense of something bad? I've lied to my wife in order to preserve her surprise birthday party, no harm no foul. On the other hand, going vigilante and killing someone who did you wrong so that no one else would be done wrong by that person is the other end of the spectrum. From a religious standpoint, the Bible does not define levels of sin, it's all just sin and we are commanded not to do it. But, Jesus covers that sin for us regardless of the nature so long as we accept Him, and I think He could appreciate a good surprise birthday party :)

I think there is a way to speak the truth or be silent in such a way that it would never be required to lie (even for a birthday party) one time a friend of mine wanted to surprise a good friend of hers who was often fixing thing in her house for his 50th birthday. Everyone was trying to figure out how to get him to her house without him suspecting something so she said I'll call him and say I have a leek in the fridge and there's water running out of a hole in the pipe. So she turned the faucet on. And then showed him the produce drawer in the fridge. It was a good joke and all of it was true, lol. Not that you're a bad guy for fibbing a little to surprise your wife. But I think the truth should be spoken always and if not then you don't need to speak at all. So I'm curious as to your idea of sin too. Catholics believe in degrees of sin. Stealing a penny from a kid versus stealing thousands from a church are not the same and wouldn't have the same weight or consequences in eternity. So if you believe Jesus died for all sins does that excuse all sins? Just wondering. I'm only familiar with the Catholic idea.

No difference from stealing a penny or stealing a thousand, imo.

Meaning neither are good or neither are bad?

Stealing is stealing. No matter how you justify it.

I agree stealing is stealing but I believe there are degrees of gravity of an act. Would you put punching someone in the stomach on the same level as killing them? You're doing a violent act toward someone, which is always evil.

"which is always evil"

Very well said. Yes, some are worse, but all are wrong/sin.

A "white lie" is still a lie, not on the same level as lying under oath but why do either? There is a way of not revealing the truth to those who do not need to know it i.e. by being silent, or carefully stating things (such as in the hypothetical Nazi scenario, which is the argument always used).

I can't say I wouldn't lie if my sister was being hid, and an invading rapey murderous army swarmed through my town, broke in and demanded women, as has happened time and again throughout history. But I'd like to think that we had been true believers, He'd either give us knowledge to sidestep the situation or we could die horribly, like almost of the enlightened prophets of the Bible. Some I believe were sawed in half alive. But having proven ourself to our Creator, if that makes sense. Because what's a hundred years of pain compared to an eternity of bliss. The closer one is to God, the louder you hear him. I wouldn't be there yet, but Jesus will argue our case better than the best lawyer ever born human could.

If I got to heaven, would Jesus be pleased it I stole just a bit (if that's possible in heaven)? No, everyone in heaven are of one mind. The victory of God's laws over sin. When you KNOW everyone around you would NEVER wrong you, how could you justify the slightest sin?

You're right context makes a difference, so that being said a violent act by definition would mean maliciously trying to do harm to someone by injuring them. Emergency surgery then would not count as an act of violence and would not be evil.

Because I have great respect for you and this topic, I'll reserve my response till tomorrow when I can properly form words so as to do it justice...I'm tired and it's been a long day, more to follow but thanks for your response :)

Code for: Kate you're off your rocker, imma need to think on this one awhile. ;)

still dealing with a stressful work situation, my mind was mud last night and not much better today...stay tuned and i'll try and get you a dignified response, i just need my head to stop swimming long enough to concentrate :)

Hope it goes better today. My mind is always mud on account of 4 toddlers and no sleep. Look forward to continuing the discussion :)

Alright, its Saturday morning and I'm away from work so imma take a stab at this, lol. I'll say after considering further that although sin is sin regardless of severity, God does hold us accountable in different ways more so as believers than those who do not know God and have not accepted him. As a believer, I believe that He would hold me more accountable for having say, committed perjury than someone who does not understand the eternal implication of sin, even though we all know that committing perjury is a bad thing. So, different sins have different consequences depending on how accountable the person is to God. I do believe that if you have accepted Jesus that He has covered all sins for you, but the Bible is clear in saying "go forth and sin no more", and God knows your heart and its sincerity. I suppose I must also say I'm eternally grateful for sanctifying grace, because even once saved we will continue to sin by our nature of the flesh, and without that grace we are expected to be saints the rest of our lives, which is a doomed concept for most of us. Sorry for the late reply, I'm soooooo glad it's the weekend!

Thanks Thparky! I agree! It's was a response worth waiting for. Enjoy the rest of your weekend :)

:)

I like this answer. it's on a spectrum. I hate vigilantism is glorified in movies and the culture in general

I was agreeing, it's on a spectrum. As I explained above there are greater sins and lesser sins. A so called "white lie" like telling your wife the ugly sweater looks fabulous on her is not on the same level as purgury in court for a murder case. I don't see how that could be viewed as vigilantism.

It's a romantic notion, vigilantism, but most people that actually act on it get it sooo wrong. Glad you like my answer, but there are many ways to look at the question...how do you feel about it?

I think the vast majority of the time..no good can come from doing something wrong- every sin has a bad reaction-we just may not see it right away. In rare cases -lying has saved lives...case in point Rahab the Prostitute lied to the military folks in her city to save two spies that believed in God.
Your motives matter. Abraham lied because he was afraid..and almost gave his wife away to another man.
Rahab lied because she believed in the men and their one true God.
To me that says motives matter.
Vigilantism leads to chaos and loss of respect for law and order..which can further deteriorate to anarchy.

Guess I should change my name to Kate_the_Vigilante

That's a curious statement ..i don't 100% follow. You really see yourself as a vigilante? B/c vigilantism leads to chaos- by going outside & around the law for personal satisfaction and is often based in emotional reasoning fueled by warranted & unwarranted anger ? But that's totally counter to " honesty is always the best policy".

I was being sarcastic. Since you and Thparky are the ones who brought up vigilantism in reference to my comments. I'm far from that.

Ok. I see. Sometimes it's hard to pick up on sarcasm in the writing.

Nope

Typical brevity

We all lie.
It’s just the depth and reasons that varies.

Peace.

There's a story of a family who were hiding people from Nazis under their kitchen floor. When the soldiers came and banged in their door demanding where were the people were the little girl said matter of factly "well under the kitchen table of course" they came in and peered under the table and she laughed at them. They stormed off thinking she was just being childish. So perhaps children have more trust in greater powers than any evil that can come at us. I'm under the belief that God would never put anyone in a situation where they would need to intentionally break His commandments.

I would agree except that Rahab the Prostitute lied to save the spies in her city because they believed in God and she had come to believe in "their" God also. Then she goes on to be in the lineage of Jesus and is recorded as an example of one with great faith ..I think this is a testament of Jesus's perfect love. She was a prostitute that lied and she is heralded as a woman of faith.
Love vs legalism I call it.

Mercy better than sacrifice, Jesus has said.

Actually I think he said obedience is better than sacrifice. He also had much to say about the legalism of the Pharisees.
Obedience to God .
The Pharisees would keep the Sabbath to a legalistic degree by not helping a person in need on that day.

He did. He also said in Matthew 9;13 "Mercy than sacrifice."

Thank u, I didn't remember that passage.
When in doubt I think since nothing is new under the sun...we should rely on the bible stories, examples, verses, with the knowledge that we won't always get it right..& should afford each other the same grace & mercy He gives us.

I don't think the Bible is condoning her lying anymore than it condoned her prostitution.

Sorry, I didnt mean to suggest it did- she was lauded because of her faith & sacrifice, not because of the lie. But it is an example of where a lie led to something good (lives being saved). And her life is also an example of how redemption is possible with faith in God. Point being there is an exception that exist when you operate out of love, faith and wisdom and not legalism.
Like the Pharisees refused to help a person in need or aid in their healing process in order to "keep the sabbath free from work". That's legalism. Legalism exist without love and in fear.

Agreed, keeping all the laws for their own sake to the detriment of the good of our neighbor is not the Christian way. I'm not suggesting that.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour .. really 🙄

Unfortunately evil exist in the world and most times we need to stand up to it.
But in some positions sometimes we find ourselves outmatched and must use subterfuge (lying) to negate evils power.
Peace.

You're not obligated to tell anyone anything. And in the case of the hypothetical Nazi, do you really think if they had reason to believe sometime was hiding in a home they would ask permission to come in? Are they going to take your word for it? Lol. No they're going to break a door down and search the house regardless. I think I will have to look more into this. I would like to know the definition of a lie. If it's maliciously telling an untruth to harm someone versus if it's withholding the truth from those who would use the truth to cause harm. There is a difference I believe.

I think that may be the crux.
The intent of said lie.
If it is to harm the the greater portion of people would say this is unacceptable.
But say hypothetically however someone you love dearly makes you a small desert ( something they already know you like)with lots of love and effort to eat whilst you are in their presence.
But it tastes god awful.( but it will be over in a few bites )
Would you lie if they asked if it was good ( small white lie) TO SPARE SOMEONE’S FEELINGS ?
I understand that this is a hard question to the religious community because you are bound by a commandment, but what is your personal feeling ?

Peace.

I would suggest she never try out for Hell's Kitchen.

Now he's someone who might stand to tell a white lie sometimes to save his blood pressure and his cook's dignity, lol. Just kidding of course. I'm all about soaking the truth but with charity.

*speaking. Dang I wish we could edit comments after posting!

Now, That was funny. I watch that show. diplomacy is not his strong suite. Lol

I'm not bound by any commandment. We're not robots with guns to our heads, at least I'm not. I can choose to follow them or not. Not even God can force anyone to follow them (as can clearly be seen by the state of the world)

To me honesty is the best policy. Even white lies tend to complicate things. As for someone's bad cooking there is a way to gently and privately offer constructive criticism without humiliating a person. I think it speaks volumes about a person if they would be deeply offended if I gave my honest opinion (with tact and not in a humiliating way in front of everyone) especially after they asked for it.

Say my grandmother labored for hours making a cake and accidently put salt instead of sugar in it (a good friend of mine actually did this at a party) I would say I really appreciate the work you put into this it looks beautiful. It's nothing like I've ever tasted before. Very unique. Then in private I would say I think perhaps you may have missed or mistaken an ingredient, it tasted a little too salty for me. Then that would prevent further embarrassment for her in the future. (If everyone said it was delicious and she went on to make that cake for someone's wedding, how would she fell then?)

I think people in general would rather have the truth but perhaps it's the delivery that matters. :)

I hope my rambling makes sense.

I've heard the average person lies 25 times in a day! Makes me wonder, who can you believe?