A question I often encounter

Posting this so we can continue our discussion from SydneyB's post earlier. Feel free to jump in. But just warning you it may get heated (pun intended)

Free will

God gives the free will to choose to reject being in heaven but that doesn't mean He would tortue his creation forever. Revelations talks of being cast into the lake of fire. A quick end. How can you truly respect a God that would be so vengeful as to torture people for eternity and who runs hell after the devil is defeated?

You do have a point. What denomination are you?

Branch Davidian. I survived Waco.

Seriously?

No :)

You were pulling my leg

Yes, i was.

Got me good

So what happens to the devil after he's defeated?

I believe the Bible talks about a thousand years of captivity, with only contemplation of his actions to do and then defeat in the final battle where I suppose he'll be in the same state of what I believe hell to be, an eternity of nothingness and separation.

And sin

True that

In a nutshell yes. So you think people choose to go there?

Some choose to go there, like Satanists, and some are just so evil that there's no room fir redemption or repenting.

I think people choose to be evil and even after death reject God so that is what hell is for. C.S. Lewis once said Hell's doors are locked from the inside. Those who go there have shut Him out forever.

No

Ahhhh, thought you were ignoring me cuz i was holding your feet too close to the fire (I get one too)

Most believed in Divine "otherwordly" live and or dead beings that had extraordinary paranormal awesomeness between the "other" world and our world. Some believe the "otherworld" is right here in our world, such as Satan.

Um

Hey Katechuks: No problem. I'm just saying Satan can mean Angel, serpent ( snake, dragon?), stink eye, and even can be more than one ........for he says " Mary M. had more than one evil devil driven from her!"

Here's the thing about Hell: it was originally intended for Satan and demons. It was not initally made for human souls. As binary as it sounds, you either accept God (in the New Testament era, that's accepting Christ as your Lord and Savior), or you reject Him.

God did not create people to be living souls so that He can have them burn eternally outside His presence. However, He did not create us to be robots, either. It's far greater to serve God, worship Him, and be in a relationship with Him freely, in Spirit and in Truth.

As to why God can't simply wipe away every man's every sin on the spot; that would not be just. This is a tired old analogy in Christendom, but I think it does hold true. It's as if a person murders someone, and gets off scot-free without any consequences, it's just not just.

God made Earth originally as a perfect place, but when Adam and Eve (people's original ancestors) disobeyed God, it brought sin and death on everyone. However, the first sin was in Heaven. Satan (then Lucifer), was the "worship deliverer" to God, and he grew prideful, thinking he could overtake God. God cast him out of heaven, along with his minions. With Satan gone, God created people to worship Him.

The ultimate punishment for sin is death, hence why Jesus became the ultimate sacrifice (basically taking on every type of sacrifice you could list in Leviticus). That's the only way to God. It's exclusive, but it's available.

So why does God allow people to rebel against Him? Why don't more people come to Christ? Why is the church getting lousy at evangelism? Why did God create Satan if He knew what he would do? Okay that last question stumps me to no end, but then again, it's not like I'm even a theologian or anything.

TL;DR: God doesn't just arbitrarily send people to Hell. He just cannot accept imperfection in Heaven. It's not His nature. By the way, when people who are saved die, their souls leave for Heaven, and God perfects them for Heaven, in case you were wondering.

Sorry if this was long and confusing.

Very well said, but what is your understanding of hell? That's the crux of the issue. I think it's a state of losing all connection with God, instead of a place of eternal torture and suffering.

It is eternal separation from God and eternal torment.

I believe its both. The psychological separation is more painful than any physical torture.

I guess what I'm asking is if you think it's like Dante's Inferno, with demons and various torture implements. And if you think God would allow an eternity to demons doing evil.

Actually, they can. God reveals Himself to most of society through the Word of God (the Bible), since it is abundant. The same God who created all of the universe definitely has his eye on every one of his created people. Some people learn about God and Jesus through different miracles, including creation.

And this brings me to the fact that a lot of today's Christians are lousy evangelists. We know about the Great Commission (See Matthew 28:16-20 for a reference), and we know for sure that there are in fact people who may have even heard about God and Jesus but don't know much about what to do about Him. This is where we (Christians) are supposed to step in and tell them, or at least support those who are called by God to go into the farthest reaches of the earth to do so.

Thanks, OM, for reminding me of that. (not sarcasm)

God will find a way to find them. He works in waus humans can't understand. For example, people in Papua (an island in my country that has a few isolated spots) may get visits from missionaries. You never know.

That's what final judgement is for. Each soul will have an opportunity to see God after death and then choose to stay with him in heaven or not.

They don't choose, they are judged by the fruit of the works. A few of those to add to the 144,000 Sainted Chosen (Jews), and that, is that.

Heaven isn't just for Christians. God provides many opportunities throughout a person's life to know Him. And I think it's inherent for every human to question the existence of a higher power. If a person is seeking the truth they will find it, it's in the human heart.

Heaven, according to the NT, is for 144,000 Sainted Chosen (Jews to you and me), plus a few others (Gentiles) judged on the good of their works.

Um, it's not literally 144,000. Somehow I think it can accommodate a few more, it's not like a stadium with limited capacity and besides souls don't take up space.

I'm not going to get into a debate about it but specifically in regards to this, Revelations uses prophetic language that isn't meant to be taken literally.

I can't remember what the interpretation of the 144,000 was I was taught, as I've forgotten so much, but I could look into if you would care at all.

Yes, I've heard of people coming to know him by inspiration.

Ditto for Lucipher.

Hell, or rather, Gehenna, WAS created for people, the unwanted ones, anyways, to burn with offal and other garbage. It literally was a big pit were things burned. It no longer is. There are even houses there now in that valley.

Life is not fair, I imagine the afterlife probably not fair either

We can change that, my leprous liege.

3070ss.gif (click to show)

You’re probably going to hate me for this but here goes.
( I am not attacking anyone’s faith but giving examples)

Is that the same god that flooded the earth ( ark time ) and killed countless people ?

Or the god that let Lot give his daughters to be forcibly ‘known’ by the mob of Sodom & Gomorites so that they wouldn’t do the same thing to the angels he had sent ?

Or maybe it’s the god that made a horrible spectacle of asking for Abraham to burn his son Issac alive to prove his loyalty ( yes I know he didn’t do it but it’s a show of gods abusing his power .. and at the very least traumatic child abuse )

Just a few examples of the LOVING god.

His final act when he’s displeased is condemnation to hell.
He has all the POWER to giveth and also taketh away.

Peace.

Ah, the age old question, why is the Old Testament God is so evil? I've had this discussion before. And I wish I had a clear cut answer but I simply don't because I wasn't there, nor did I write the Bible.

He did food the earth but he also gave the people there plenty of warning and time to repent but only 8 people actually listened. He also promised never top do it again.

That story of Lot makes me cringe and want to slap him. That's not even the worst of the stories of people making bad decisions.

The Isaac and Abraham story is also puzzling to me but I've been told it's the parallel between what he asked Abraham do but didn't let him go through with it and the way God gave his own son (Jesus) up to be sacrificed so that we could go to heaven.

I'm guessing you don't really believe in God. Because the God seen in the Bible isn't really one you want to worship amarite?

No sorry I don’t believe in the god of the bible ( or Quran or the Hindu gods, Sikh gods etc etc ) organised religion just seams like a giant Ponzi scheme of misery sold on the back of martyrdom.
But if people want to believe & they think it enriches their lives ... well it’s their life ..err enjoy.

Peace.

I appreciate the fact that you're honest about how you feel about these things. I don't think God made Himself so vastly above our knowledge to NOT want to question things He does / things He did (at least not to the point of doubt on another.

Question: how'd you come up with the whole Ponzi scheme idea? (not sarcasm)

Also, for enrichment: it is a shame that people use God as an "enrichment feature," as though it were a bullet point on your social media profile. "Yeah, I have a Master's degree, I enjoy bowling... Oh yeah! I go to Church on Sundays, too!" I've heard it said that God is not supposed to be a crutch, but your life support.

I just see organised religion asymmetric power structure.
If religion (s) truly wanted to ‘save’ people why don’t they spend none of their funds on the opulence of churches, mosques, temples & fancy costumes for bishops, rabbis, Imams, the and give it to the truly deserving of the world and have their followers spend less time praising and more time doing to help said people.
I love to see a day when all religions financial accounting was published in real time ( internet maybe ?!? ) up dated hour by hour to show how they truly foster the poor and needy & how much gets spent on ‘internal’ matters.
The true believers should be constantly offering to enrich with their skills and Labour their ( and others/ non believers) communities rather than creating this in group/out group scenario...of we live our lives this way and we’ll go to heaven and if you don’t we’ll tease you with taunts of eternal damnation.

Peace.

Hey, Ricardo, I'm going to post a series of responses, so this may take some time.

Love the friendly discussions here! You guys rock!

I can't speak for world religions as a whole. I know only a smattering of different religions, and lived as a Christian for a long time.

"I just see organised religion asymmetric power structure."
Kinda is. Just saying. God is the Lord Almighty. Whether we accept it or not, He has His way in the end. All we need to do is join Him. We are to accept Jesus as our Savior for washing away our sins when He died on the cross, which was a sacrifice no man can match, and we don't need to do anything to earn our salvation. We believe in our hearts that God sent His Son to save us, that Jesus died and rose again in three days -- something no man has done on his own -- and that He will one day return to gather His church, those who believe. It's up to you to decide to join.

Actually most financial reports of churches are made available online. What if I told you many (excluding the prosperity preachers like Osteen) do give much more than they get income wise.

I did not know that. And yeah, Osteen might not be the best example.

Museums are both keepers of historical treasures and businesses if you sell off all the artefacts ..boom !! there goes the business.
Surely the church isn’t a business and the vast majority of its incomings should be charity donations ( money it gets for free from the kindness of people )so it would be nice to see it’s financial dealings in real time not months after the transactions have taken place and ‘could’ be amended to appear ‘differently’.
Total financial transparency in real time would be a benefit both internally & externally.

Peace.

But most museums are free to go into. My point is the art and artifacts in a church are for the benefit of the people who attend rich or poor. There is also upkeep of the buildings, insurence, paying employees who help run the churches, a small percentage goes to the priests, sisters who serve the thousands of people who attend the churches. Are there people who ware the money sure, just as there are greedy individuals all over the world who don't have the best intentions with money entrusted to them.

"I love to see a day when all religions financial accounting was published in real time ( internet maybe ?!? ) up dated hour by hour to show how they truly foster the poor and needy & how much gets spent on ‘internal’ matters."
Again, I see your point. It's a good idea to hold people accountable to allocate funds and resources to where they are needed most, and especially where God would need said funds and resources. To post it all on the internet, in my opinion, is a bit much. Imagine if you were supposed to have all of your financial information out there for people to monitor how you allocate every penny. We're the Body of Christ, not Wall Street. There's got to be some level of confidentiality.

I would suggest maybe sitting in on a Church business (or family, depending on the church) meeting sometime. You don't even have to vote on the issues. It can be long and boring (again, depends on the church), but there are reasons for these internal budgets.

"The true believers should be constantly offering to enrich with their skills and labor their ( and others/ non believers) communities rather than creating this in group/out group scenario...of we live our lives this way and we’ll go to heaven and if you don’t we’ll tease you with taunts of eternal damnation."
Dude, I couldn't agree with you more. I'm not bragging, but one of God's gifts given to me is ministry. I love putting in time, as I feel like it's one of my best resources I can give (I still tithe, but you know). And this kind of issue does bug me. As I said, you cannot earn your faith beyond what Christ purchased for you on the cross, but one verse that some of us tend to forget, because it can get misinterpreted is James 2:17 - "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." This does not mean we lose salvation if we don't do anything about it. It just doesn't represent Christ well. It's as if you say you're going to be a world-class musician but never practice more than once a week, and it's just Mary Had a Little Lamb. You can sound really good on that song, but people aren't going to see you as much of a musician as someone who's played Beethoven, and you guys have the same parents.

And yeah, people are not always the best at representing Christ. The gift of salvation shouldn't be a country club, and I think it's something many of us struggle with. In an effort to not be of the world, we really isolated ourselves from the world, making our children / relatives our biggest mission field. It's one thing not to be equipped to go out into some remote island, but we could at the very least provide support to the people who do. Some churches are very good at missionary support.

I hope this cleared up some stuff at least Christianity. But don't just take my word for it. Talk to your local pastors or Seminary professors. Better yet, look up the Word of God itself! If you can't understand it, find someone to help you or listen to a couple of different sermons (there's a wealth online). I honestly hope you do get saved, and with your zeal and love for people, help others get to know Christ.

Philippians 4:6-7

Thanks for taking the time to comment.

I think it’s great the way you admitted that there are shortcomings within the organisations and some people of the faith.
I wish you all the best with your mission work helping others for the future.
I don’t think I’ll be making any proper contact with any religions in my future.
I hope some day you realise you weren’t saved and can’t be saved and you’re just a ‘really good person’ who has given themselves over to an organisation and even if that organisation didn’t exist or never existed you would still be a ‘really good person’ without them

peace.

I would love to see the same real time report for the Government, planned parenthood, facebook, any organization really. But is that even possible or practical?

I would like to see all the organisations you mentioned plus more under constant audit and the world being as interconnect as it is then it’s surely possible.

Peace.

"If religion (s) truly wanted to ‘save’ people why don’t they spend none of their funds on the opulence of churches, mosques, temples & fancy costumes for bishops, rabbis, Imams, the and give it to the truly deserving of the world and have their followers spend less time praising and more time doing to help said people."
I have to say, I understand your point. It would seem as if people need to re-allocate funds to help the poor. And yes, some do go overboard in more modern-day design, making it look more like a rock concert than a house of worship. I'm not all too crazy about some of these megachurches either, but for reasons in addition to putting on a show rather than presenting the Gospel in a down-to-earth, factual, and loving manner.

In Christendom, a church building is God's house (figuratively speaking, of course). If you take the time to make your own house look nice, why not take the time to make a house of worship look as though a King resides there? Granted, we're not in the Old Testament era, but read where it describes how the temple was supposed to look. It's way more intricate than what we have in churches nowadays (even the historic ones), and the instructions came straight from God Himself.

Nowadays, post-Resurrection, the idea is to gather people within communities to regularly worship God corporately. This started out in people's houses (see the book of Acts, aka The Acts of the Apostles)!

I've seen my fair share of different types of gatherings. Some buildings were old and in dire need of repair. Some made me wonder "Do you really need a strobe light for a praise break?" Some were small and intimate. Some had large flocks, if you'll pardon the metaphor. Again, I don't have too much against large churches, but personally, if your church is big enough to hold multiple smaller "churches," maybe start splitting off.

Now, I've obviously put a couple of cents in about different types of churches, but it's just that... my opinion. But "Christianity" itself doesn't save people. Christ does. We are to be His messengers of the Gospel.