Confused Gandalf

What? The building of the Wall or the ending of this supposed 'Humanitarian Crisis'

It won't solve the immediate crisis, but it still is urgent that we build it to keep this from happening.

It’s already happened. You can’t prevent something that’s already happened.

And will always happen.

PoLiO HApPEnD sO We CAnT EvEr SToP It. iT wILL AlWaYs HApPeN.

Stupid idiot.

Fine by me. I mean the Shutdown doesn't effect me over here in Europe so why should I care? *Looks at China and Russia* Though perhaps you should get on whit it now. You know for economic reasons and shit.

I can't wait to see Europe flail(and probably fail) trying to deal with the Russians once we're finally done with your continent of ingrates. The sooner NATO dies the better. It's gonna be a real ride :)

You're English, you're not one of us, you don't speak for us.

Have fun with your Brexit.

Hey! You don't need to wait! Just look out a window! I hear London's predicted weather is DEMONSTRATION with a 45% Chance of RIOTS

Too bad I'm not actually english :)

Bloody hell! East European then? That's the East European opinion popular with their Right wing, borderline dictatorial, politicians. That would explain the Russia remark. Though nut to crack going off of a single comment.

American. Sick of Europeans thinking that we owe them our blood and money. If you won't defend yourselves, you can fall. You aren't worth the tens or or hundreds of thousands of american lives it would cost to defend you from Russia. You aren't worth the hundreds of billions of dollars we spend to defend your continent. If we were attacked ourselves, the most you'd do is send a token force to "help" so why on earth should we put ourselves out there for you? You get all the benefit and we do all the spending and dying. Meanwhile you sit there across the ocean, safe behind AMERICAN forces, and talk about how superior you are to the silly yanks who spend all their GDP on military instead of social programs. You disgust me, tbh.

Germany and the majority of the rest of Europe are allies in name only. The idea of panzer divisions coming to North America to help defend us against a foreign invasion is LAUGHABLE. It would NEVER HAPPEN, even IF somehow a foreign power were to manage to land on our shores. The germans would just say "oh well" and go on with their lives. Yet if Russian tanks crossed the border into Poland, what would be the US response?

What part of this alliance benefits the USA? Seems to me we risk everything and you risk nothing.

"You aren't worth the tens or or hundreds of thousands of american lives it would cost to defend you from Russia."

Oh really? How about losing half of the free world, Americas biggest trading partners and Strategic allies.

"If we were attacked ourselves, the most you'd do is send a token force to "help" so why on earth should we put ourselves out there for you?"

Who in god's name would attack America? China? Russia? It can't be Russia since that would require you sending help to us. You must be talking about the Chinese threat. What exactly do you expect Europe to be able to do? Send over the HMS Elizabeth? Maybe a few pooled together fleets? Europe's strength lays in its economy. We'd probably break the Chinese Economy through Sanctions and blockades whilst you Americans work on dismantling their trading Network. We wait a few Years and watch as Chinese economy collapses due to lack of Imports and exports. If your talking about a Mexican or Canadian Military attack... Would you really need help? face it, you aren't the arsenal of Democracy without reason.

"You get all the benefit and we do all the spending and dying"

Yes, dying for us in a non existent War. If it were a War against the Russians, We Europeans would be the Front line as we try to hold Majority of Poland and maybe regain it and push into Russia. We'd mainly be holding the Line until reinforcements arrive and we are able to confidently push. You wouldn't be dying alone. In that War. If your talking about Syria and the such. It is you who ultimatley cuased these problems don't blame us.

"and talk about how superior you are to the silly yanks who spend all their GDP on military instead of social programs. You disgust me, tbh."

Philosophers will be Philosophers and Warriors will be Warriors. Ican't say that American spending is misplaced. I find that a healthy Military is a must in this world.

"Germany and the majority of the rest of Europe are allies in name only"

Perhaps with Poland, Hungary, Romania and the UK, but the rest of Europe WILL present a united front against any incursions and threats posed by foreign Governments.

"The idea of panzer divisions coming to North America to help defend us against a foreign invasion is LAUGHABLE"

Yes, its laughable because no one would get to your shores. That's kinda a big part of your Defensive strategy. But if that were the case, I promise you as fellow members of NATO we WOULD come to America in its hour of Need.

"Yet if Russian tanks crossed the border into Poland, what would be the US response?"

See the thing is, you have an ocean as a Natural defensive barrier. Poland's got... Plains and forests. Arguable far more easier for a Military force to cross. That said America isn't within spitting distance of a Hostile power.

"What part of this alliance benefits the USA? Seems to me we risk everything and you risk nothing."

Seems like someone forgot the Cold war. If America were to lose Mainland Europe (Including the UK) to Russia or China, it would not only lose its biggest Military allies and trading partner but also half, if not more, of the free world. Friendly Democraic Governments would become limited to Japan, Canada, Mexico (?Maybe if we squint really hard?), Iceland, Greenland and Australia.

You say biggest military allies, yet what did germany do after 9-11? Send a handful of troops to the safest region of afghanistan where they sat around and drank beer, barred from actually being deployed in combat except on rescue missions. Don't have the nerve to claim to be our allies when other nations actually fought and died beside us while your people got drunk in camp. Germany has zero intention of ever honoring a call to arms if the US were attacked, and your people have already proved it. Even with the joke of a mission you sent to "assist" us, you STILL had demonstrations and protests about how you shouldn't have gone. Germany is a fair weather friend and nothing more. We owe you NOTHING. We certainly don't need to be putting ourselves at risk of fighting world war three for your sakes. Britain, France, Poland, and maybe a couple of other nations in Europe are the ONLY european nations I'd ever call allies without it being a total joke. I'd take the Australians over you any day of the week, because they have actually shown that they take the alliance we have with them seriously. Your people haven't even slightly shown the same conviction.

I am Replying to this comment instead of the newest one, because I can't seem to be able to reply to that one. Odd.

Anyways

"You say biggest military allies, yet what did germany do after 9-11"

The f**k do you expect us to do? Germany doesn't have the logistical Military infrastructure to support more than what we currently have sent all the way in Syria and Afghanistan. We aren't in possession of a Military capable of responding anyweher any time. Nor is Germany strategically suited for such Operations. I mean HAVE you seen the German armed forces? Our Helicopters are eight guys carrying a Metal slate and a ninth guy making Helicopter noises. About less than half of our Military forces are not Combat Operational. I mean the current Defence Minister is adressing the issue, or she is trying atleast.

"Send a handful of troops to the safest region of afghanistan where they sat around and drank beer, barred from actually being deployed in combat except on rescue missions"

Yeah, pretty much. Its pretty crap actually. Thats one thing I just never understood why it was done. Bloody odd I tell you.

"Don't have the nerve to claim to be our allies when other nations actually fought and died beside us"

Who the hell are you talking about? The Poles? Hard to imagine them doing anything for Freedom or Democracy. The French? The British? Perhaps? I don't know. AGAIN, just because the Military is filled with Incompetent, suspected Nazi Sympathisers (There was a hole scandal about Reporters finding Nazi Suporrting stuff in a Bundeswehr Barracks) doesn't mean there isn't a Will to support outlr Ally who has done so much for Freedom and Democracy. I have the NERVE to call Germany and America Allies because we ACTUALLY are. Economic and strategic. You can take the British. We'll even give you the Poles and the Hungarians. F**king Tinpot Dictatorships both of them. But We're still europes third largest Military, on Paper.

"Germany has zero intention of ever honoring a call to arms if the US were attacked"

By terrorists that were caused by your meddling and proping up of Dictators that allowed the Radicalisation of their peopel? No, thats your problem. An attack by a Foreign power? Germany and the rest of Europe, except maybe the East, would support you as mandated by NATO.

"Even with the joke of a mission you sent to "assist" us, you STILL had demonstrations and protests about how you shouldn't have gone."

Well duh. Unlike America we have more than two Political parties with power. I would assume that the protest was organised by Die grünnen or Die Linken. They are were Anti-Military in general. That doesn't however mean we are unwilling to help in your time of need. Your actual time of need.

"owe you NOTHING. We certainly don't need to be putting ourselves at risk of fighting world war three for your sakes"

Ah yes, the last 70 years of American-German friendship and solidarity washed down a toilet by an orange. Oh how the mighty have fallen. Seriously though, you'd actually be

"Oh Russia's invading Europe? Who cares! Not like we made it our duty to protect the free world from Russian influence. Did you literally forget the Cold war!? America had everything to lose by losing Europe and still does to day.

"Britain, France, Poland, and maybe a couple of other nations in Europe are the ONLY european nations I'd ever call allies without it being a total joke."

I am sorry you think Poland gives two damns about you. The French and the British? Yeah I can agree on that. Though I am not sure after Brexit if Britain will have the time to send you troops. Seeing as there is seeious talk about a Minister for Food. Because there are just tgat many Brits who might starve that a Ministry is planned for that. Poland is busy with going down the path that Putins layed down for them and the French... The French are actually fine. I can imagine the French might send double that what we would send. So still not much, but a remarkable improvement.

"I'd take the Australians over you any day of the week, because they have actually shown that they take the alliance we have with them seriously"

Ah yes, the Military that lost a War against an Animal. And the oh so mighty Royal Australian Navy and Army. I didn't list Australia as one of Ameeicas remaining allies if Continental Europe ever fell, because they are weak but because they would be what you woild have left. So what makes the Australians more Valuable allies? Is it their coffee? Perhaps the couple of bases you have there? Nah, not as important as your biggest Military, Wconomic and political ally

"Your people haven't even slightly shown the same conviction."
With who and about what have you been talking about for the last few days?! We Germans respect our alliances That I promise

It won't. If anything it would disrupt the relief efforts of this supposed 'Emergency' which in and of itself is just an Excuse for Trump to circumvent the American Congress.

Please explain how it will disrupt the "relief efforts".

Ever driven through a border check? The Jams are so long you don't see the actual booth sometimes. A Wall would just make the problem bigger as unlike a simple booth you can't drive around it. The relief efforts to the very 'pressing' and not having been there for a long time Humanitarian 'Crisis' would be stalled for quite sometime. I assume Air Drops would not be sufficient nor reliable. Boat landings would have to be discussed with the Mexican Government and would only help Coastal Border regions.

What are you talking about? About the only thing I can discuss with you is your failed logic about border crossings.

I live by the border. I've walked into Mexico. It can be time consuming, but that's how borders work. You're saying just let people drive around legal entry points? No, that's not how it works.

I haven't got a clue what the heck you're referring to in the second half of that paragraph. Air drops? Onto what? You think there's a zone designated Humanitarian Crisis? No, dude.

The 'Crisis' is two things: all the people being detained because they get caught breaking the law by entering the country illegally; and all the suffering the people endure trying to get to our border so they can break the law and enter illegally. There's no need to Air drop or use boat landings... These people are stuck in government facilities or are traveling all over Mexico. The crisis would be ended if nobody got caught entering the country illegally and nobody tried to enter the country illegally!

The wall addresses both of these problems. It will make it impossible for most people to enter illegally and it will dissuade people from making the journey to enter the country unless they have a valid asylum claim.

"You're saying just let people drive around legal entry points? No, that's not how it works

We were talking about supposed relief efforts and how a Wall would get in the way.

"The 'Crisis' is two things: all the people being detained because they get caught breaking the law by entering the country illegally; and all the suffering the people endure trying to get to our border so they can break the law and enter illegally. There's no need to Air drop or use boat landings... These people are stuck in government facilities or are traveling all over Mexico. The crisis would be ended if nobody got caught entering the country illegally and nobody tried to enter the country illegally!"

El Presidente really doesn't make it sound like the Border patrol are over worked and more like an actual Humanitarian Crisis, like that in Syria. Besides that the Crisis as you have described it would be better solved if you were to actually fix the problems in south America. just cause a Wall exists doesn't mean people won't try and that people won't ask for Asylum either way.

Adding to that you yourself have asked how a Wall would disrupt supposed Relief Efforts, that by your own definition don't even exist, And don't go calling me out on that as I have made it clear that there is no immediate Crisis and its just an excuse for Trumpistan to get his little Wall. That's why I think it would disrupt the nonexistent relief effort.

"The wall addresses both of these problems. It will make it impossible for most people to enter illegally"

Ever heard about tunnels? Or Planes? or Explosives? Or Boats? I mean most illegal immigration comes from people overstaying their Visa, so I don't exactly see that Wall cutting down much except for World respect. And you have precious little of that left.

"and it will dissuade people from making the journey to enter the country unless they have a valid asylum claim."

What exactly is a Valid Asylum Claim to you? Perhaps, its he one dictated by the U.N. which is

"A refugee is someone who has been forced to flee his or her country because of persecution, war or violence. A refugee has a well-founded fear of persecution for reasons of race, religion, nationality, political opinion or membership in a particular social group."

And that basically fits all of them.

Anyways f**k you, your mother was a frog and your father is a beaver. I am to tired and will probably not continue this dialog.

"I am to tired and will probably not continue this dialog."
It's probably best that you don't, because you're not at my level.

"it would be better solved if you were to actually fix the problems in south America"
I agree. Do you know what the problems are in Central America (CA)? The CIA infiltrated CA countries governments and industries. They disrupted stable governments and put in cooperative leaders so that people could grow drugs like cocaine for them. These drug growers become Drug Lords and become the true power in their countries. They are the money backing the gangs that do the violence that people flee from in CA. Those drugs gets trafficked into the country mostly through the southern border.

The Wall would make it very difficult for The Drug lords to maintain their empires. If the drugs can't get into the country, people can't buy them. If people don't buy them, Drug lords can't get money from growing drugs. Drug lords get weak and if the peasants decide to rise up, the US can supply them with weapons the way we always do with favorable rebels.

"Ever heard about tunnels? Or Planes? or Explosives? Or Boats? I mean most illegal immigration comes from people overstaying their Visa, so I don't exactly see that Wall cutting down much except for World respect."

Research the Wall. Tunnels will not work.

It's pretty clear you don't understand Air Traffic. Radar is at the border. Planes would be intercepted.

Explosives? Yeh, and you wonder why trump is talking about a national emergency. Most Illegal immigrants don't have explosives...

Boats are already a thing and Trump has already stated they are going to boost ALL ports security. He's a very anti illegal drug smuggling president.

"What exactly is a Valid Asylum Claim to you? Perhaps, its he one dictated by the U.N."

That is what a Valid Asylum Claim is to me. Though i'm not in the business of helping immigrants, I'm very close with someone who is and I know more about asylum claims than anybody on this website and what I don't know I can find out within 24 hours by asking people in the field.

That does not "fit all of them". Many people lie. Most of the children are here for valid reasons. The adults, not so much.

I am going to address only one thing you mentioned. Drugs

If the Mexican drug cartels vanished overnight? It would only create a new cartel/cartels elsewhere and once again in Mexico.

Drug supplier supply the demand and will fill it.

There never was a war on drugs.

The cartels were created by the CIA. Trump is purging the civilian intelligence agencies and repurposing them. Combining the effects of the Wall with the loss of the CIA's direction and cover would cause the cartels all across CA to lose their ability to get the drugs they are selling into the country. It doesn't matter if the demand is still there. If they can't get the drugs in, they can't sell them.

Since you clearly ignored what I actually stated there will be no purpose speaking with you on the subject

They'll magically get the 100,000 lbs of marijuana and a ton of cocaine and a ton of haroine through.... someplace.

There's a reason the DNC is fighting so hard to stop the wall.

Don't keep repeating the same nonsense unless you have some logic or evidence behind it.

I agree that there was never a war on drugs, just wars for drugs initiated by the CIA and the people they answer to.

I did address you, but your point was useless because it didn't address current issues. Yes if they vanished overnight they would be replaced. Add into the equation the wall and the purged CIA and you're wrong. The cartels wouldn't pop back up because they'd have no access to buyers. The drugs wouldn't be profitable because nobody could buy them.

You do realize if drugs weren't available that would include your source and you would have to come back down to Planet Earth and then you might be forced to take your proper meds?

One last time. The wall will not stop it.

Let’s imagine the wall was completed tomorrow.

They cartels would already have alternative routes and methods.

Beyond all the supply that comes thru points of entry

There simply isn’t enough man power and funds to stop it.