Anti-Semite Robert D. Bowers Is A Christian Terrorist"

Anti-Semite Robert D. Bowers Is A Christian Terrorist" | Robert D. Bowers Christian Terrorist | image tagged in conservative christianity,anti-semitism,neo-nazi,white nationalism,white supremacy,squirrel hill pittsburgh synagogue | made w/ Imgflip meme maker
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3 ups, 8m,
3 replies
There's no such thing as a "christian terrorist."

Now, now...don't melt down...

There are plenty of people who call themselves "christians", but are nothing of the sort. Jesus did not say "shoot your enemies dead." He said "love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you."

Therefore...those who hate their enemies and kill them are acting IN OPPOSITION to what they claim to believe.

Now...if I claimed I was a toaster...said I was a toaster, believed I was a toaster...but could not actually stick bread into whatever orifice and turn it into toast...am I really a toaster...?

Of course not.

Just because you CLAIM something, doesn't mean you ARE that thing.
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3 ups, 8m,
1 reply
Would you say there are Buddhist terrorists? Sikh terrorists? Hindu terrorists?
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1 up, 8m,
1 reply
Does Buddhism expressly forbid violence against one's enemies...? Does Sikhism? Hinduism....? The answer to those questions is the answer to yours.
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1 up, 8m,
2 replies
Buddhism expressly forbids violence against one's enemies. So if someone claims to be a Buddhist and commits an act of violence or terrorism, would you say they aren't actually a Buddhist?

I'm just curious how consistent you are when applying this No True Scotsman fallacy.
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2 ups, 8m,
3 replies
Sorry if this is a bit meandering, but here we go:

To be a Christian is not just a belief, but is actually defined by a spiritual state, namely having had one's heart changed into not wanting evil. The acts/works are the evidence of this, but it is the spiritual state of the heart that defines a Christian. That is why Jesus even limited its membership, saying:

"21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ (Matthew 7)

To be a Buddhist does not require a spiritual change in the same way, to the point that the membership is actually defined by what the members hearts are drawn to. Therefore to compare Buddhism and Christianity is an apples and oranges comparison because to be a Christian is by definition inconsistent with a heart that would seek to truly harm others, which isn't core to Buddhism. It's like asking if law-abiding citizens can commit crimes, versus can factory workers commit crimes.
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1 up, 8m,
1 reply
"To be a Christian is not just a belief, but is actually defined by a spiritual state,"

What does "spiritual state" mean? What do you mean by "spiritual"?
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1 up, 8m,
2 replies
I mean the state of one's spirit or soul. If you are a Christian it means that your spirit has actually been cleansed by repentance (seeking to stop being prone to evil), baptism (cleaning off what has already been committed), and the acceptance of the Holy Spirit which changes the core of what your spirit longs for. Real Christians have actually received an embryonic piece of God's heart in their spirit, and thus don't thirst for evil at their core the way others do. However, it does take time and effort for this to permeate the whole being.
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1 up, 8m,
2 replies
I just realized that you also asked what I meant by 'spiritual.' I guess it's an understanding that is easy for a Christian to take for granted.

In the beginning, God created both the spiritual (heaven) and physical elements of creation (earth) (Genesis 1:1). Spiritual elements of the world are perceptible, but are far more subtle, and are difficult to discern. The physical tends to follow the spirit, so people who don't believe in the spirit will often accredit spiritual things to the physical 'symptoms.' For example, how do you really know someone loves you? They can buy you presents and do helpful things, but then so can a scammer because those things themselves are not love. The better your spiritual discernment, the better you will be able to tell the difference. In fact, with someone you know really well, the spiritual connection can be so strong there can even be rare occasion where you don't even have the physical clues, and still know what is going on in their head. Twins are know for those kind of things.

Every living thing has a spirit, though there is more to the spiritual creation than that. Just like in the physical, there are animate and inanimate things in the environment. God is spirit, too. People have different gifts when it comes to perceiving the spirit, which can be confusing, too. Whereas mostly everybody has the same senses in their physical body, in the spiritual, it is the whole community that is seen as a body to need all the 'spiritual senses' (biblically called spiritual gifts) represented. For more examples of these see 1 Corinthians 12 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians+12&version=NIRV)
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1 up, 8m,
1 reply
Genesis1:1 In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth.

There is no spirit or spiritual in real Judaism, at least not as you define it. The Torah is about the physical. Spirit is feeling, intention, the function which is your emotions.
The concept of a physical/spiritual duality is a Hellenistc introducion, not Hebrew.
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1 up, 8m
Many verses in the Old Testament discuss the spirit in a man. There are far more than this. The Old Covenant was indeed about the physical. The New Covenant was about the spiritual.

Genesis 45:27 But when they told him everything Joseph had said to them, and when he saw the carts Joseph had sent to carry him back, the spirit of their father Jacob revived.

Numbers 14:24 But because my servant Caleb has a different spirit and follows me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he went to, and his descendants will inherit it.

Numbers 27:18 So the Lord said to Moses, “Take Joshua son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit of leadership, and lay your hand on him.

Deuteronomy 2:30 But Sihon king of Heshbon refused to let us pass through. For the Lord your God had made his spirit stubborn and his heart obstinate in order to give him into your hands, as he has now done.

Job 7:11 “Therefore I will not keep silent; I will speak out in the anguish of my spirit, I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.

Job 10:12 You gave me life and showed me kindness, and in your providence watched over my spirit.

Job 17:1 My spirit is broken, my days are cut short, the grave awaits me.

Job 32:8 But it is the spirit in a person, the breath of the Almighty, that gives them understanding.

Psalm 31:5 Into your hands I commit my spirit; deliver me, Lord, my faithful God.

Psalm 32:2 Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord does not count against them and in whose spirit is no deceit.

Psalm 34:18 The Lord is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit.
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0 ups, 8m,
2 replies
You say God is spirit. Does he have a physical body?
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2 ups, 8m,
1 reply
God is only spiritual, but Jesus took on human flesh as well.
0 ups, 8m
If god is only spiritual, he doesn't have a physical body. If he doesn't have a physical body he doesn't have a physical brain. If he doesn't have a physical brain how does he think thoughts? Thoughts come from a brain which is a physical thing.
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2 ups, 8m,
1 reply
(I can't reply below your red comment) You actually have it backwards. Thought is primarily spiritual, but your brain stores data and is an interface between the physical and spiritual. When God went to make the physical, the challenge was likely more to make physical creatures capable of thoughts, which required some measure of spirit to be present. It is your spirit that guides the use of your brain, not the other way around.
0 ups, 8m
And what is your verified, documented scientific evidence for this?
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1 up, 8m,
2 replies
I don't know what you mean by soul. What is that? I've heard people try to define it, yet no one has shown me compelling evidence that it even exists. How do you know a soul exists?
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1 up, 8m,
4 replies
The soul is technically a combo of your spirit and your mind/brain, but people disagree on this so spirit and soul often get used interchangeably in speaking.

You cannot detect the spiritual with the physical, though there can sometime be similarities in how they feel (spiritual tingles, the silent voice/thought language, your mind's eye). You would have an easier time seeing with your ears, though, then truly finding the spiritual via the physical. Spiritual characteristics are things like intentions and emotions. Satan's favorites are doubt, fear, and especially pride. God's are things like "love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control," to extrapolate from Galatians 5:22-23. The brain helps modulate and translate the spiritual into the physical, but it isn't the real source of our intentions and emotions. Dreams often are a good example of the same thing, with our mind connecting physical representations to things our spirits are experiencing or connecting to.

If you really want to recognize the spirit, your best bet is to ask God to show you. If you don't really want to see the truth of it, you won't though; the spiritual is most likely subtle by design
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1 up, 8m,
5 replies
Most of what you've said is "christian" gobbledygook, New Age "spirituality" and psychology, given "christian" words and descriptions. There's no such thing as "an embryonic piece of God's heart." That's pagan idolatry, dressed up. "Spiritual tingles" is straight out of mystic tradition. You will find no such phenomenon in the Bible.
1 up, 8m
You exhibit the common pagan belief that God and Satan are polar opposites, that God is helpless to deal with Satan's ways and means.

Nothing could be further from the truth.
1 up, 8m
No. Didn't mistake anything for anything. Of course the Bible is not the totality of God, and there are a ton of bibliolators out there who worship the Bible, not the One it is about.

But your words...again...are new age pseudopsychology, mixed in with the mysticism that is ultra common amongst the "touchy feely" pagan "churches" around the world today.
1 up, 8m
I describe what I've encountered. It's kind of like two unconnected people both describing a tomato as red and round.

Of course you are going to see commonalities between the false and the true. That's what deception is. If false religion didn't contain some truth, no one would fall for it. Satan's falsification, though, doesn't discount the true. If anything, its one of the devil's favorite techniques to inoculate people against the true. Pharaoh's magicians could produce serpents from their staffs, just like Moses could. This is yet another reason why discernment must include the spiritual, not just the physical.
1 up, 8m
I respect that you are seeking to defend the truth, but there are some verses you might want to consider: 1 John 4:1-6 (Why test if we are to throw everything out?) Acts 17:10-12 (The Bereans) John 14:12 (You will do greater things than these)
1 up, 8m
On some of what I say you mistook my descriptions for doctrines. I don't pretend though, that everything is straight out of the Bible because the Bible is not the totality of God. Jesus himself said that he couldn't teach everything while he was here, but instead pointed the disciples towards the coming of the Holy Spirit, saying in John 16, "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you." To apply the Bible is to have a relationship with God, and the Bible is core to that relationship, but who God is, is too vast to be limited to any book. Even of the time Jesus spent on the earth it says in John 21:25, "Jesus did many other things also. If every one were written down, I think that the world would be too small to hold all the books that would need to be written. Yes, it is so!"
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1 up, 8m,
1 reply
Soul means anima, life, as in your animated body, not some apparition that inhabits the shell of your body.

The Gods Yahweh and Elohim were cantankerous, demanding, jealous, spiteful, wrathful creatures.

Satan (as originally described before being borrowed and demonized in favor of their own patron Gods by the Egyptians, Sumerians, Iranians, Hebrews, then Romans), was the original good God, the light, the giver of wisdom.

Take the Eden story, erase the names, give it to someone who is unfamiliar with it to read and ask them which God was good, which was wasn't. The one who offered the gift of wisdom and knowledge of good and evil (the Christian transformation you described earlier) vs the one who threw a tantrum because they partook of the fruit and cast them all out to be marked with damnation (original sin) for eternity. If you need to be dunked in water to figure out which one had your best intentions at heart, which one was a petty vindictive selfish tyrant, then you are far from being born again.
1 up, 8m
I've clearly had a different experience of God than you have.
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1 up, 8m,
1 reply
I don't know what a spirit is, either. Different people mean different things when they use that word. If you mean some immaterial thing that lives on after a person dies, I've never seen any evidence that such a thing exists.

I only have physical senses. If you're saying that spiritual things exist yet can't be detected through physical means, how can you verify they even exist in the first place? What reliable, repeatable, testable method do you use to detect a soul or spirit?
2 ups, 8m
Living things are both physical and spiritual. The spiritual is just subtle, though God does have to enable recognition. You can ask for it, but, no, it doesn't come on the terms that you want by design.
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0 ups, 8m,
4 replies
I don't believe god exists, but if he did, why would he need to enable recognition of spiritual things? Wouldn't they already be recognizable?
1 up, 8m
This is a response to "AnnOn-a-mouse", but since we've exhausted the chain, I'm replying to you:

He/she says:

" First of all, Satan’s rebellion messed a lot of things up in creation itself. I don’t fully understand all of the implications, but this limited some of what God wanted to be freely available. "

1. Satan didn't "rebel."

2. Lucifer and Satan are not the same beings.

3. Nothing in creation was "messed up" in a way that "limited" some of what God wanted to be freely available. That "god" is a weak, impotent pushover with no power, and deserves no worship.

The God of creation designed everything to happen precisely as it has happened, from beginning to end, including Satan...whom God designed for his role.

Again...it is a demonstration just how firmly pagan mythology (bullshit) has been intermingled with the Truth (purposely so, by the way) that you believe that God's creation was somehow marred by one of His own creations, without His input or say-so.

Those are the acts of a Zeus, of a Mithra, of a Shiva...not of the Creator of all that is.
1 up, 8m
To some extent we are able since we are both physical and spiritual but there are several things going on. First of all, Satan’s rebellion messed a lot of things up in creation itself. I don’t fully understand all of the implications, but this limited some of what God wanted to be freely available. Second, with The Fall of mankind in the garden of Eden, deception was introduced. Deception is the mixing of the true and the untrue so that it is difficult to tell what is really true. Third, there is a concerted effort by Satan to further confuse and obscure things.
1 up, 8m
(Part 2 of 3) Furthermore, like many other of our senses, we have to learn and even be taught about how to use them. For example, when my niece was an infant she would see something in front of her hands and try to get it, but would end up kicking her feet instead of moving her arms, and then be frustrated and confused about why this wouldn’t work. Most kids naturally read the spirit but try to respond through physical means. Learning to navigate the spirit requires both experience and direct teaching via a guide (primarily God but also through others). Instead our society actually ignores and downplays the spirit. Even in a Christian home I had a lot of unlearning to do because of the media and school environment. The world taught me to go by facts and ideas instead of reading the situation; this caused me great difficulty in life because I couldn’t respond quick enough to other people since much of what is communicated between people is spiritual. A possibly more relatable example of the need for a spiritual guide is that when my niece got a little older, she had to have people teach her to recognize emotions like sad, mad, frustrated, etc. These have a spiritual component which makes them much more difficult to relate to than the tangible, physical things of the world, but discussing them with her and answering her questions was enough. Some things basically get addressed by parents giving positive or negative responses to children’s choices, but if you can address the root cause of a behavior when it is actually coming from a spiritual place, you can better direct your child in how to respond in new situations. For example, once when my niece was a tot, she started acting oddly rebellious beyond the understanding of a toddler. I instantly knew that something outside of her was influencing her, so rather than just dealing with the rebellion, I dealt with the source, and the problem didn’t arise again.
1 up, 8m
(Part 3 of 3) Also, while God is seeing that creation progresses to the point of seeing clearly (“For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.” 1 Cor. 13:12), having to trust God along the way to guide requires and produces humility. The Bible celebrates that “God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him” (1 Cor. 1:27-29). I have seen the beauty of this in seeing the mentally handicapped grasp what the intellectuals miss. The world values intelligent people as more valuable than others, but since God created all minds, He isn’t impressed by such things. What impresses him is the heart, and needing the humility to ask Him to open your eyes to the spiritual is the ultimate field-leveler on this.
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1 up, 8m,
1 reply
Soul simply means life, at least according to the Hebrews. When someone dies, so does it because it is merely the function of a living body.

There is no spiritual realm/plane in the Torah. That's a Hellenistic introduction and part of the corruption of what became today's Christianity.
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1 up, 8m,
2 replies
You may be right. There is a Hebrew word for breath which I think may be the same word used for spirit. I could be wrong.

The Old Testament did have some form of afterlife (Sheol, I believe), but it was where all people went after they died. There weren't two different places.

Numerous ancient cultures had a belief in an afterlife where everyone went, both good people and bad, to the same place.
1 up, 8m
You are correct that wind/breath/spirit were all the same word. This was intentionally used when God talked to Nicodemus about the Holy Spirit in John 3.

Realize that things WERE different in Old Testament times because Jesus hadn't yet died on the cross. Apparently there was disagreement on if there was an afterlife, because Jesus and Paul both dealt with the fact that the Pharisees believed in the resurrection, but the Sadducees did not. I wouldn't cite this website for just anything, but here is an article that does a nice job of discussing how much resurrection was mentioned in the Old Testament: https://www.icr.org/article/resurrection-old-testament/
1 up, 8m
The thing with Sheol is that it's in the last book, the book of Job. The only mention in the Torah, and people in it were observed sleeping.

The Covenant was basically for men to folllow the Commandments, and they'll have productive fields and faithful wives and most of their kids won't die young, stuff like that. No afterlife.
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1 up, 8m,
1 reply
To be a Christian, as the name itself indicates, is to believe in the notion of Jesus as the Christ.

Evil is relative, defined by cultural norms. Religion, Christian or otherwise, is not needed to know what it is, since rules and laws not only suffice, but may supersede such. Hence why most Christians don't observe the Sabbath and women are no longer stoned to death should their hymen be discovered to not be intact on their wedding day.

Getting dunked in water and repeating some prayers is hardly transformative. It's a symbolic act, a fairly simple puberty rite.

Buddhism IS spiritual transformation, ever illuminating and ongoing, and without middle men - no irate Gods required. It's your own journey, finding yourself and your part in existence and it, you.

The concept of Jesus, compared to what proceeded, is very Buddhist, albiet, minus the depth and introspection.
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1 up, 8m
Truth is a constant, not relative. For example, there was a time that African Americans were seen as less valuable than others. Now they aren't. Reality didn't change just because public opinion did.

Truth is indeed in plain sight, and God does allow for non believers who recognize it, but there is a constant effort from the devil to distort it. This is deception.

If you choose to see baptism as nothing but being dunked in water, then you won't see anything transformative. And proper baptism isn't about birth or puberty, but is a physical representation of what God is doing in the spiritual.

There is a time to be irate. Anger is a response to injustice, perceived or otherwise. God's anger is always in truth, for example, being angry with the false religion that had people sacrificing their infants. In a fallen world, if you have love for anyone or anything, you will become angry at some point when the loved one is harmed.

If you think following God is lacking in depth and introspection, than you obviously don't know Him. There is far more, but have you so much as read the wisdom books of the Bible like Proverbs and Ecclesiastes?
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0 ups, 8m,
2 replies
I'm not sure why an all-powerful god would allow Satan to mess things up in the first place. He could just stop Satan from obstructing his plans.

"The world taught me to go by facts and ideas instead of reading the situation"

Is going by facts a bad thing? Facts are what line up with reality. You want to go with what matches reality, don't you?

"For example, once when my niece was a tot, she started acting oddly rebellious beyond the understanding of a toddler. I instantly knew that something outside of her was influencing her"

How did you know this? And what was the "thing" outside of her that was influencing her?

I'm still waiting for someone to show me evidence of anything "spiritual". If it exists, there should be a way to verify its existence. If it exists but doesn't manifest in reality, then it's indistinguishable from something that doesn't exist.
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2 ups, 8m,
1 reply
(Part 1) God didn't know Satan would rebel. God is generous with authority, so Satan had real power to mess things up. Even God learns things, so He now is more cautious. I know that with humans God reads their whole life all at once, but doesn't know before they exist what they will choose. It was probably similar with Satan. By the way, my answers always include things God has shared with me via either my walk with him or prophecy. I believe nothing can disagree with the Bible, but there are some things God just didn’t share in the Bible. The Bible itself says that God would do this (John 16:12).

The problem with facts in the context I described is that they are insufficient on their own for interpreting situations at the speed of life. As a child I became an easy target for bullies because I would try to interpret motives based too much on clear-cut actions and black-and-white ideas. By going too much on mere facts, it would take hours and even days to figure out where someone was coming from when they meant me harm. I realized this difference all the more when as an adult I worked as a substitute teacher and had to write up any significant interactions. It took me several years of leaving late from trying to explain human interactions on a purely factual level before I finally realized that most of what happens in an interaction is spiritual stuff that cannot be spelled out as “Student did X so I did Y.” Instead of trying to define it on a purely physical level that was pretty much impossible, I started just saying things more like “Student X had a rebellious attitude.” I was also a pretty lousy teacher when I started due to the same problems I’d had as a student myself, of only ascribing motives when there was clear factual evidence. In both situations, trying to define everything on a purely factual level was not functional, and just set me up for failure. Middle schoolers in particular are masters of deception and themselves intuitively know how to read your spirit; if you don’t read theirs, you will lose virtually every battle.
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0 ups, 8m,
1 reply
Describing god as not being omniscient goes against the beliefs of the majority of Christians.

Also, what reason do you have for believing that Satan exists?
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1 up, 8m,
1 reply
On the first, Christians don't all agree on doctrine. Consider for yourself why God might allow that.

I have been personally taught by God on how to deal with demons, and have thus interacted with them quite a bit on a limited (training-level) basis.
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0 ups, 8m,
1 reply
I'm not sure why god would allow people to believe things that aren't correct. If I were god I would want people to know what's true.

How would you convince a nonbeliever like myself that Satan or demons exist? What evidence would you show them?
1 up, 8m
You have to consider in full recognition that God is wiser and of better character than anyone you have ever met, yet in other ways he is very much like us. He doesn't go for the low-hanging fruit. When he says he is after something, he wants it in truth not just in word or action. He isn’t black-and white in His thinking (because reality isn’t black and white and God is perfectly capable of navigating complexity). He can also speak in different literary styles (prose, poetry, hyperbole/exaggeration, etc.). He isn’t a manmade idle that plays by the rules of manmade attempts to control things by good behavior, but rather is a real being that is after healthy relationship. If you are too prideful to honestly consider this viewpoint, you won’t get there.

Consider what is accomplished by things being clearly evident or not. What effects does each scenario produce in the character of the people and His relationship with them. What truly matters to God? Are some things more important to understand than others? I'll give you a hint: He isn't interested in numbers, quick and easy paths, or intellect.

You may find help in 1 Corinthians, however, I predict that 1 Corinthians 1:10-17 will confuse you further. The better you know and respect who God really is (ex. good, true) the better you will understand what is being gotten at, but Titus 3:9-10 might be some useful context. (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+1&version=NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Titus+3%3A9-10&version=NIV
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2 ups, 8m
(Part 2) With my niece I was observing the physical but also probably reading the spiritual. God has seen to it that I have much training on dealing with the enemy (Satan, the devil, demons). The fact that she was reacting in a way that was beyond her developmental level was a big physical clue that there was a demon messing with her, and I had seen similar things dealt with in other kids, but the quickness with which I recognized it suggests that I may have been picking up on the spirit of what was going on.
The spirit does manifest in reality, and is knowable, but it just doesn’t come through your physical senses, it comes through your spiritual ones. The fact that these are subtler, however, makes them easy to ignore or dismiss. For example, have you ever been somewhere that felt creepy? If you did, it likely wasn’t just your imagination but it can be hard to tell. When there was a shooting in our town, my friend could tell just by opening the door that something was off in the area, though we didn’t know at the time what it was. I have much more to share on that, but I don’t feel comfortable sharing it here.
The bottom line is that the faith God talks about in the Bible isn’t blind faith, but it likely won’t come on the terms you want. Its not that God never does such things, but they aren’t his preferred methodology for reasons of character and relationship, hence the story of so-called Doubting Thomas, who would only believe if he saw with his own eyes. (John 20:24-29)
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2 ups, 8m,
1 reply
As I've already explained to you, many, many times, you are incorrectly trying to apply the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

Do I need to create a template to cut and paste every time you try to claim that?

Let's explain for everyone who isn't you: the "No True Scotsman" fallacy has to do with suggesting that certain behaviors wouldn't be engaged in by a "true" (insert whatever is being claimed here)...except those behaviors have nothing whatsoever to do with the characteristics of actually being a Scotsman, like "no true Scotsman puts sugar in his coffee." That is a great example of the fallacy you are trying to shoehorn in, here, because "sugar in your coffee" has nothing whatsoever to do with being a "true Scotsman." It is not a characteristic of being a Scotsman, because people put sugar in their coffee all over the world, entirely independently of Scotland.

However...if you were born and raised in Idaho, to Pakistani parents, and have never been to Scotland...you cannot call yourself a "true Scotsman", because you possess none of the innate characteristics that identify someone as an ACTUAL Scotsman.

Do you understand this point yet?

I'm no true toaster, either.
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2 ups, 8m,
2 replies
You want to define "Christian" in such a way as to be able to say that anyone who does something terrible isn't actually a Christian.

A Christian by the most basic definition is someone who converts to Christianity by accepting Jesus as their savior. You're trying to say that being a Christian also includes these other things. Well, not necessarily.

When do someone's actions make them no longer a Christian? What's the cutoff? Stealing a candy bar? Punching someone in the face? Driving drunk? Committing indentity theft? Murder? Negligent homicide?

I've heard some Christians say that if someone has a pattern of repeated, unrepentant sin they aren't really (or are no longer) a Christian. I'm just trying to find where this cutoff is. Five sins? Twenty? Two hundred? It's nearly impossible to find a Christian who doesn't sin at all, ever. The Bible clearly says this.

https://www.openbible.info/topics/sinful_nature

At what point do you say someone isn't actually a Christian who professes to be one? This is very important information.
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1 up, 8m
You actually have some very good questions about something even many Christians (both real and otherwise) don't fully understand. Like learning to talk, taking the steps necessary to become a Christian often end up being something you end up doing proficiently before you really understand what it means to do them proficiently.

I hope we have sufficiently answered your question. If not, I'm happy to answer honest and respectful questions the best that I can. I suspect others in this conversation are as well.
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1 up, 8m,
4 replies
No, dear. I "want" to define "christian" the way the Bible defines it. It's pretty straightforward.

What you don't understand...because you're just as fooled by the world's religious system as anyone...is that you don't "start out" being a "christian" merely because you claim it.

And your "definition" of being a "christian" IS NOT what the Bible says about who is, and who is not, a "christian."

You hate "christianity." No doubt. You, like millions or even billions besides you, have been disgusted, and rightfully so, by the actions of liars around the world and for 2000 or so years, who claimed to be "christians" and were anything but.

Maybe you should consider, here, that YOUR understanding of what it means to be a "christian" is what is deficient, and based on the definitions of liars who claimed to be something not only that they are not, but most importantly: **NEVER WERE**. In other words...it's not that someone is "no longer" a "christian"...it's that they never were in the first place.

Maybe...just maybe...the idea that "accepting Jesus as your savior" is the giant lie that man's religions have foisted upon the world, and everything that necessarily follows that lie is, therefore, invalid...

...ever consider that?
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1 up, 8m,
1 reply
I don't hate Christianity because of how people have misrepresented it. I hate it based on what the Bible itself says about it. Christianity is a childish, disgusting, insane, absurd, immoral, horrible belief system, according to the Bible itself.

In Christianity there's no incentive to be a good, moral person. I could do every evil, horrible thing I can think of, give my life to Jesus right before I die (sincerely, of course) and spend eternity in a wonderful place called Heaven. No punishment, no justice, nothing.
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2 ups, 8m,
1 reply
Yes, that's the manifestation of the world's religious fiction, alright...your entire perception of "christianity" has been completely corrupted by the perverse, pagan abomination that calls itself "christianity." It's like you're reading lines from the pagan playbook, word for word, complete with the fairy tale "deathbed conversion" story that fills the halls of pagan gathering places that dare call themselves "churches." The Bible doesn't say anything of the sort. You'll find no such idea anywhere in the Bible.

You won't believe this, because you've been so thoroughly corrupted by the world's religious system, but what you just wrote is not what the Bible says at all. In fact, it's the complete opposite: "Don't delude yourselves; you can't mock God. What you sow, you reap" is what Paul wrote to the believers in Galatia. Does that sound like "no punishment, no justice, nothing"...?
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0 ups, 8m,
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So you're telling me that if someone converts to Christianity at the end of their life they don't get into Heaven, regardless of how horrible they were before their conversion?
1 up, 8m
There is a time for justice and a time for grace. Much, but certainly not all of the differences between people's' behavior has to do with things external to their real intentions. For example, I have never taken an illegal drug in large part because of the environment I was raised in. I have struggled with issues like pride and disrespect because that was what was modeled to me in my formative years to the point that that was what was recorded in my brain. I have heard a changed man terrified of what others would think of him because as a kid he escaped an abusive home with one parent only to be thrown out of his home with the other because he would find himself repeating the abuse on his younger siblings. The truth is that anyone who thinks themself altogether better than people who do 'X' likely lacks the insight to realize the real reasons why anyone does 'X.'
1 up, 8m
I'm telling you, you have a completely corrupt view of these things, top to bottom, including the pagan idea of a "Heaven" to which people "go" when they die. You have listened to pagan perversion, and accepted it as "what the Bible says", when the Bible says nothing of the sort.
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0 ups, 8m,
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So you're telling that the Bible says nothing about believes going to Heaven after they die? All the Bible verses that talk about it are misinterpretations?
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1 up, 8m,
1 reply
Such as...?
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0 ups, 8m,
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https://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/heaven-bible-verses/

More NT verses than OT, but there are still quite a few
1 up, 8m
Don't give me generic links. What specific verses are you referring to that talk about "going to Heaven after they die"...?

Quote them, here.
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0 ups, 8m,
1 reply
Mark 9:43-45 makes it clear that damnation is unending and therefore eternal.

Revelation 14:10-11 (NIV) says: "they, too, will drink the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."

"An eternity in Hell for those who refuse to "accept Christ"...? Sounds unrelentingly cruel, doesn't it?"

Yes, it does sound cruel. But that's what the Bible says. The eternity and horror of Hell is a big selling point in Christianity. "Become a Christian and give your life to Jesus to avoid this terrible fate!"

What about the good people who live fairly virtuous lives? They're screwed. But again, the Bible makes it clear that Jesus is the only way to get to Heaven (John 14:6 - I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father but by me)

I don't believe any of this is true, but I can't speak for why anyone else does. Many people believe it because they were taught it growing up. Some people became convinced of it later in life. Fear is a great motivator. Convince someone that Hell is real and that they'll go there if they don't become a Christian, and they'll be eager to convert.
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1 up, 8m,
1 reply
"Mark 9:43-45 makes it clear that damnation is unending and therefore eternal."

You are incorrect. What does Jude, verse 7 say? What about Jeremiah 17:27? How about Ezekiel 20:47?

"Revelation 14:10-11 (NIV) says: "they, too, will drink the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."

...what is the tense of the word "worship"? And, space-time has 4 dimensions, not just one. Maybe the dimension you think it's referring to is inaccurate...

"Yes, it does sound cruel. But that's what the Bible says."

No. That's what you THINK it says, that's what you've been TAUGHT it says...but that's not at all what it actually says.

"The eternity and horror of Hell is a big selling point in Christianity. "Become a Christian and give your life to Jesus to avoid this terrible fate!""

Of course: "Join our pagan cult and do what we tell you, or you'll pay BIG time!" What rational person wouldn't reject that bullshit nonsense?

"What about the good people who live fairly virtuous lives? They're screwed."

Except that presumes there are "good people." The Bible clearly says, unambiguously, that there aren't. But are they really screwed....?

"I don't believe any of this is true, but I can't speak for why anyone else does. Many people believe it because they were taught it growing up. Some people became convinced of it later in life. Fear is a great motivator. Convince someone that Hell is real and that they'll go there if they don't become a Christian, and they'll be eager to convert."

Of course. "Join our pagan cult, and do what we tell you, OR ELSE!"

It's a pretty damn compelling message, for sure...but it's also a complete and total lie.
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0 ups, 8m,
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Jude 7 mentions eternal fire. Jeremiah 17:27 refers to a fire in this world, not in an afterlife. Ezekiel 20:47 also refers to a fire in this world.

I'm not sure what the tense of "worship" is in that verse. It could be past tense or future tense. And I'm not sure which dimension you're referring to.

You're saying this isn't what the Bible actually says, yet this is how Christians have interpreted these passages for many centuries. Just because these teachings sound horrible and unjust, it doesn't automatically mean that the Bible isn't really saying this stuff.

Are you an annihilationist, or do you not believe Hell is real at all?
1 up, 8m
"Jude 7 mentions eternal fire. Jeremiah 17:27 refers to a fire in this world, not in an afterlife. Ezekiel 20:47 also refers to a fire in this world."

Jude 7 says Sodom and Gomorrah "suffered the punishment of eternal fire."

Is Sodom and Gomorrah still burning to this day? The Bible clearly depicts the destruction of S&G as a physical act, in this world. But it describes them as suffering the punishment of eternal fire. So why isn't that "eternal fire" still burning...unless the word "eternal" is doesn't have to do with time...?

The fire referred to in Jeremiah and Ezekiel was, indeed, "fire in this world", as you put it...but it was the same type of fire: eternal, unquenchable. So are the palaces of Jerusalem still burning? Are the trees of Israel still burning? If that "unquenchable fire" or "eternal fire" eventually went out, maybe "unquenchable" or "eternal" doesn't mean what you think it means...?

You're not sure of the tense? It's pretty straightforward: it's present tense. It doesn't say "those who worshipED the beast and its image", does it? And there are four dimensions in the universe that we can experience through our senses: length, width, depth, and time.

"You're saying this isn't what the Bible actually says, yet this is how Christians have interpreted these passages for many centuries."

How "christians" have interpreted it, yes...remember, these are people who openly celebrate pagan holidays, like "christmas" and "easter" (didn't even bother to change the name for that one), and become hostile if you challenge them on it...yet, you will find no such "holy days" celebrated in the Bible, and much against them (Ishtar, for example, is mentioned by name in multiple places on the OT.) And I'm sure you've heard all the excuses for why it is "ok" to celebrate them. So, those people not interpreting the Bible correctly....? Not even remotely implausible.

"Just because these teachings sound horrible and unjust, it doesn't automatically mean that the Bible isn't really saying this stuff."

It means those "horrible and unjust teachings" never existed in the first place.

"Are you an annihilationist,"

No.

"or do you not believe Hell is real at all?"

God, no. Hell is as real as anything.
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0 ups, 8m,
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Numerous verses refer to either Heaven or Hell and how to avoid Hell and get to Heaven.

Matthew 7:21 refers to entering the kingdom of God and who can go there

John 3:36 says that whoever believes in the son of god has eternal life.

Matthew 5:17-20 refers to the kingdom of Heaven and who won't make it there

Matthew 6:19-20 refers to treasures in Heaven for believers

Matthew 5:19 refers to the kingdom of Heaven

Mark 9:43-45 talks about avoiding Hell
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1 up, 8m,
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I'm not sure why you're resisting actually quoting those verses.
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0 ups, 8m,
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I wasn't resisting it, I just wanted to keep the comment concise
1 up, 8m
How about you pick *one*, and quote that.

But since you brought up Mark 9:43-45, Is it safe to assume that you believe that "christians" believe in the pagan concept of eternal damnation? An eternity in Hell for those who refuse to "accept Christ"...? Sounds unrelentingly cruel, doesn't it? Even the worst murderers on the planet...Mao, Stalin, Hitler...only had 15-40 years to do their worst, but after a billion billion years of torment in Hell, it's only just begun....?

And what about all the "good" people, who lived fairly virtuous lives...? Same fate awaits them? Eternal torment awaits them, too, roasting in terrible agony forever and ever, just because they refused to "accept" whatever flavor of "god" was being pushed on them at that moment...?

Dante and his "Catholic" church (and all her Protestant daughters, and Egyptian and Babylonian forebears) really pulled a fast one on the world...

So, a sane, rational person rejects that (who wouldn't?), but did you go to the next step of wondering if maybe that, too, is one of the giant lies of the pagan abomination that calls itself "christianity"? You ever wonder about the motivations of people who suggest such a thing...? Why people would so willingly and eagerly accept this fairy tale as fact...?
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3 ups, 8m,
1 reply
Technically, you're right.

But increasingly, the name of the game is "identity politics."

And Bowers, who is a terrorist, identifies himself as a Christian.

The situation recalls Trump...

"Deplorable Donald" is antipodally opposed to most tenets of The Party Of Lincoln..

But it's still appropriate to call him a Republican - even in his sunken state.

Indeed, if we were to measure professed Christians against Jesus' standards, there wouldn't be any.

"Terror And The Other Religions"
How Do Christians Rank As Terrorists
Juan Cole
http://paxonbothhouses.blogspot.com/2014/04/terrorism-and-other-religions-juan-cole.html

"Pope Innocent III's Albigensian Crusade And Genocide"
http://paxonbothhouses.blogspot.com/2016/08/the-catholic-churchs-albigensian.html
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1 up, 8m,
1 reply
"Indeed, if we were to measure professed Christians against Jesus' standards, there wouldn't be any."

...you're on to something. You should pursue why this is, and what the ramifications of such a statement would be if it is true, or very close to true....
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1 up, 8m,
1 reply
I disagree that there wouldn't be any, but there are certainly a lot fewer than people think. The verse I quote above from Matthew 7 suggests as much. In words of prophecy to my church, God has Himself called those who compromise "semi-Christians." He also has connected these to the lukewarm of Revelation of Revelation 3:16, that He says He will spew out of His mouth. Sadly I have been horrified to witness how watered-down some churches have become, not teaching the need to repent, even though Jesus emphasized it repeatedly, even telling the disciples, in Luke 13:5, "unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
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1 up, 8m,
1 reply
There is not a single God in any religion ever to have used the term "Christian" let alone, "semi-Christian." Even the bogeyman from the future that never was, the "Anti-Christ," is not so named in the Bible.

The Book of 'Matthew' was written at least a century after Jesus. Whomever he was (not the Apostle nor any other person name Matthew), that puts him in a position to not be the best reference of what 'Jesus' supposedly said.
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1 up, 8m
You are mistaken and confused in your assessments here. "Semi-Christian" was given in a word of prophecy. I clearly stated that it came "In words of prophecy to my church". Antichrist is clearly named in the Bible, though some translations may possibly word it slightly differently. For examples see: https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=antichrist&qs_version=NKJV%3BNIV%3BNASB%3BWE

There is much to the study of biblical history. You represent one viewpoint to the exclusion of others, and don't even cite your source.

Going forward, I am happy to answer questions of those who truly want answers. I'm not as willing to answer challenges given by close-minded individuals, because, well, what will it accomplish of value? A person who doesn't want the truth will not find it even if it could somehow be presented on a golden platter.
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1 up, 8m,
1 reply
Umm... identifies as Christian, caused newsworthy tragedy including property damage and possibly death... I think that qualifies as Christian Terrorist.
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1 up, 8m,
1 reply
As we have all learned in social studies lately, what someone "identifies" as isn't what they are...and it usually code for "pretending to be."
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1 up, 8m,
1 reply
Well until the day comes that DNA tests on Maury can accurately determine who's cool enough for the Roman cult of killing Jesus, we'll have to go by the old standby:

If it walks like a duck,
And it quacks like a duck,

Then it isn't a Christian.
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1 up, 8m
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