Man alone on hill at night

Not trying to start anything because as a conservative atheist living under the US Constitution, you're free to worship whatever deity or deities you wish ... and there are thousands to choose from all claiming to be "the one true god." But worshipping any of them isn't required to live a moral life, a fulfilled life, a happy life, a safe life ... or to hold onto the traditional values that human society has evolved to know work. I'm a conservative because conservatism works based on thousands of years of human experience. And one of the greatest conservative minds in history, Thomas Sowell, is himself a self-described agnostic who focuses on empirical and historical analysis rather than a 2000-3000 year old text written by people who didn't even know where the sun went at night.
No god or gods needed. And labeling people as "fools" doesn't help the conservative cause.

I absolutely agree that people can live completely moral lives without any mention or use for God in their lives. The quote I used does indeed come from an "ancient" document. That particular collection of writings has proven remarkably useful in its wisdom. If one should incorporate the words from Proverbs into their lives, they can lead to good outcomes. The teachings of Jesus and his early students have led to many positive moments of enlightenment for all humanity. Living morally without God comes with, in my opinion, problems. Morals divorced from a higher authority become subjective. German authorities and many of it's people believed they were doing what was right for them in the 1930s and 40s. The very essence of subjective. Individually we can be moral persons. Humanity has proven we cannot live moral lives as a whole throughout history.

One interesting thing about bringing up "German authorities" -- Romans 13:1-7 commands submission to governing authorities, as they are “instituted by God.” But that doesn't apply if they don't do what you believe to be the best thing? Note that Paul didn't quantify or specify anything about these authorities, just told you to obey them as if they were from God.

Paul sent a "slave" back to his "master", both followers of Jesus, with the admonition that he be freed.

While the New Testament is often read as softening Old Testament severity, it still results in slavery being accepted, but not condemned. Even THEN human society was evolving it's morals. Paul instructs slaves to obey their masters with sincerity (Ephesians 6:5; Colossians 3:22), and 1 Peter 2:18 tells slaves to submit even to harsh masters. Paul even sends Onesimus, a runaway slave, back to his master Philemon rather than outright calling or demanding emancipation. That would have been contrary to societal norms and against property ownership. Granted, Paul's appeal for Philemon to act out of love and to consider Onesimus as a brother in Christ carries a subtle but powerful push toward freedom or at least a radically different status. Scholars debate whether this constitutes a call for emancipation, as Paul focuses more on spiritual equality than legal status, leaving the outcome ambiguous.

Imagine how much clearer God and Paul could have been by saying simply, "Let my people go" and condemned the act of slavery but again, it would have gone against societal norms or the time and resulted in a loss of property for Philemon. Human society in that era and region of the world had not evolved it's morals quite far enough. But in much of the world today, we have.

Ironically we have goofball leftists claiming that NBA players being paid millions to play a game for half a year are "slaves" to the team owners .....

The Way was a gigantic push against societal norms at that time. "Love your enemies." "Bless those that curse you." "Give unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's.." The recent examples of prayer vigils in the wake of the assassination of Charlie Kirk have been perceived as foolish by many. If the left had the ability to wipe out those on the right there are few that believe they would refrain. Those on the right are primarily the legal gun owners: self defense, hunting, etc. Prayer vigils, to the left, are foolishness and scary. They call it every invective they can think of.

Really? Note that some of this is rough draft excerpts from my book.
Calls to avoid vengeance and to show kindness were already present in Jewish Scripture: “If your enemy is hungry, give him bread to eat” (Prov. 25:21–22; cf. Exod. 23:4–5). Stoic and Cynic philosophers also urged rising above retaliation. Seneca, for example, taught forgiveness and clemency (De Clementia 2.3).

Bless those who curse you ... Jewish wisdom literature contains parallels about not repaying insult with insult (Prov. 24:29). Some Greco-Roman teachers advised equanimity in the face of abuse as did many of the Stoics.

Give unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s ... Paying taxes to foreign rulers was already debated in Judea. The Pharisees and Herodians generally accepted it, Zealots and Essenes opposed it. This story is simply a literary device but since the author of Mark had a large Roman audience, this was simply a hat-tip to make sure he wasn't locked up or worse.

Nothing he said was entirely new: Many teachings echo Torah, Prophets, Proverbs, Homer, and strands of Greco-Roman philosophy. Even the "golden rule" has versions appearing in Jewish, Greek, Chinese, and Indian traditions centuries before Jesus's time.

For example:
**Leviticus 19:18: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” While not phrased as reciprocity, it grounds moral concern in self-love.
**Tobit 4:15 (2nd c. BCE, Deuterocanonical): “What you yourself hate, do not do to anyone.”
**Hillel the Elder (c. 30 BCE–10 CE), roughly contemporary with Jesus: When asked to summarize the Torah, he said: “What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the whole Torah; the rest is commentary.”
**Isocrates (436–338 BCE): “Do not do to others that which angers you when they do it to you” (Nicocles 61).
**Epictetus (c. 50–135 CE, slightly later than Jesus): taught empathy by considering how one would wish to be treated (Discourses 1.13).
**Seneca (c. 4 BCE–65 CE): urged treating slaves as equals, noting, “What you wish your neighbor to be, you must be yourself” (Moral Epistles 47.11).
**Confucius (551–479 BCE): “Do not impose on others what you do not wish for yourself” (Analects 15.24).
**Mahabharata (c. 4th c. BCE): “This is the sum of duty: do not do to others what would cause pain if done to you.” (5:1517).

Keep asking questions. Above all, STAY CONSERVATIVE.

Sadly, you know too much and understand too little. You are very intelligent but intellence cannot save any of us on the day of judgement. Each of us deserves justice on that day. I will continue to pray for your soul until I die and pray hard for all those that hear you speak or read your words. Every soul is too precious to me to do less. Please live a long life as free from sickness as possible. I will not lose my faith because you lost yours.

I know your words come from sincerity, having been deeply involved in Christianity and even was a church planter at one time. I actually led many people to Christ by reciting the sinner's prayer. And I also claimed that atheists "knew too much but understood too little" ... until I actually studied enough to understand WHY they thought the way they did. Then I realized they were correct and I was deluded. My eyes were opened. There was no magic fruit. There was no magic hair. There was no magic spit. There was no talking snake. There was no such thing as the infallible, inerrant, inspired word of ANY god. Man wrote them all and decided what would be called the "word of god" ... by voting.

But understand this: I haven’t ‘lost’ my faith — I gained a reality based in an existence that can be proven rather than one I once imagined. I chose a different path because I value truth more than comfort. I value honest investigation into the claims made rather than trusting biased historians or pastors. Intelligence and understanding aren’t obstacles to salvation; they’re what keep people from mistaking conviction for certainty. You’re free to pray for me if that gives you peace, but my views are not a sickness or a tragedy. If prayer actually worked, I'd have reached a different conclusion long ago. I respect your right to your beliefs, but I won’t have mine dismissed as ignorance.

Maybe one day you'll run across one of my books and you'll have your eyes opened as well. I once claimed that absolutely NOTHING could dissolve my faith ... and then reason stepped up to the plate and I've never been happier.

Again, as a politically Conservative atheist, you do you. Believe what you want. But please understand that calling people "fools" even if your god tells you to do so, doesn't not help your message.

I would present to you modern day Japan. I'll put the general morals of that country up against a "Christian" country any day of the week. I lost a wallet on a train once ... it was waiting for me at my hotel's front desk with nothing missing. I was frantic until the clerk smiled and handed it over to me. Then I was baffled and glad I wasn't in the US.

Here is some of the "morality" in the Bible that has evolved, thankfully, and proof that ALL morality is subjective since it has evolved beyond the Middle Eastern tribes who supposedly came up with morals.
1. Slavery – The Bible regulates rather than prohibits slavery. For example, Leviticus 25:44–46 permits Israelites to acquire slaves from surrounding nations as permanent property that you can pass down to your own children The New Testament advises slaves to obey their masters (Ephesians 6:5; Colossians 3:22). Today's morals have evolved beyond the Bible's.

2. Genocide and Total War – The conquest narratives in Joshua encourage the extermination of entire populations (e.g., Joshua 6:21, the destruction of Jericho; Deuteronomy 20:16–17 commands the annihilation of Canaanite groups), leaving no survivors, to prevent cultural influence. This clashes with contemporary prohibitions against mass violence. Today's morals have evolved beyond the Bible's.

3. Treatment of Women as Property – Exodus 21:7–11 allows a man to sell his daughter as a servant/concubine. Deuteronomy 22:28–29 requires a man who rapes an unbetrothed virgin to marry her and forbids divorce. Today's morals have evolved beyond the Bible's.

4. Polygamy and Concubinage – Patriarchs and kings take multiple wives and concubines, and such practices are regulated but not condemned (e.g., Genesis 16; 1 Kings 11:3). It wasn't until the New Testament (in Paul's forged letters, but that's another topic), that only church leaders were to have one wife. Today's morals have evolved beyond the Bible's.

5. Blood Vengeance and Collective Punishment – Deuteronomy 5:9 and Exodus 20:5 portray God as “visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children.” The herem warfare practices (Deut. 7:2) involve killing innocents as part of divine judgment. God even killed David and Bathsheba's baby boy. God. Killed. Babies. But he killed millions more in "the Flood" and he gets excused under Divine Command Theory. This is immoral. Like it or not. And we've evolved way past it.

Absolutely no argument that more moral cultures, countries, and individuals can be found throughout the world than can be found in "Christian cultures and communities." Throughout history, Christianity has been hijacked to promote immoral acts. The "Spanish Inquisition", crusades, the enslavement of people in the US are just a few examples of heinous uses of Bible teachings. I would never argue for evil acts which were perpetrated upon any portion of humanity. I would, however, argue those acts do not represent the God that I serve. I would point out that the birth of Jesus, His death, and resurrection were all predicted centuries before His birth. His second coming has also been predicted along with the catastrophies that will precede His arrival. I would urge all that do not trust in Jesus and the work He did before it's too late to look more deeply into it. I am not better than anyone else, the One I put my trust in, is. Once we die, it's too late to choose.

Yeah, I already did that for multiple decades. Was a missionary, preacher, seminary grad, and a staunch apologist. I know all the claims. And where they're exaggerated and mistaken. I could go over them one by one but there are too many contradictions. bibviz.org has a decent list of several hundred but there are thousands more. Predictions can easily be manipulated and produced post hoc.

Do your research, ask lots of whys, as what is missing, ask what should be in the Bible that isn't, and realize that other people study this stuff in massive, massive detail.

I asked myself if I truly believed that a magical fruit once existed that made people live forever.
I asked myself if I truly believed that a hand appeared out of nowhere to write prophecy for Daniel to read by carving with it's finger into a stone wall...then disappeared.
I asked myself if I truly believed that long hair made a human have super strength.
I asked myself if I truly believed that people came out of their graves and wandered around Jerusalem -- and not one contemporary historian mentioned it.
I asked myself if I truly believed that a virgin birth was possible (explain the resulting DNA please).

There are literally thousands upon thousands more questions and at one point, I had to answer no, I don't believe these stories anymore. When an honest man is shown to be wrong, he will either stop being wrong, or stop being honest. I decided to stop being wrong.

But you do you.

How very sad that you lost your way. Even more tragic that you would choose to attempt to convince others into your choice. We all have a choice to "do you". If, as you say, you spent a long time being on the side of what the word of God calls truth, you should know that you are held to higher standards and therefore greater punishment. I am heartbroken over your choice. I do absolutely wish you the best life you can have here.

LOL, there is no punishment. There is no hell. There is no god. Grow up. Quit believing man-made myths. According to your god, I'll be forced now to eat my children (mentioned 5 times in the BuyBull).

Doubting your “salvation” or your faith is evidence that your mind is fighting back against the ridiculous concept that an inter dimensional being actually exists and cares about your individual life ... or any human life for that matter. I probably can't convince you of anything I stated above because of the very fact that it is, in fact, true. You are your "god".

No, the "personal relationship" you have with your god/gods/deity is ... let's face it ... just a genuine, deep-seated, heartfelt, and active relationship with yourself, with YOUR own ego. There is no god. There is no deity. There is no magical place in the sky called heaven where everything is perfect and you sing to your god 24/7/365, nor is there any place of eternal torture that's inflicted by your "god of love" for an infinite amount of time because of finite “sins” committed by those who failed to believe in an invisible entity that refused to manifest himself to those people in a meaningful, verifiable way. Again, infinite punishment for finite offenses … steal a pen from work and suffer for all eternity. How can anyone call that “just?”

After spending the five decades of my life as one of those staunch, apologetic, argumentative believers, I have become convinced that all religions and other supernatural beliefs are cultural phenomena of a purely human making as science slowly dismantles all those beliefs. The old "god of the gaps" phenomenon gets more and more silly as each gap in our knowledge and understanding is filled with scientific discovery and explanations that actually make sense. "Faith" is no longer required to explain the common cold, comets, viruses, eclipses, birth defects, pregnancy, death, disease, mental disorders, chance, dreams, even those "tingly" intuitions that you attribute to an invisible deity.

9o6bub.jpg (click to show)

Whatever helps you get through this life unafraid of the future. Science can't adequately explain the origins of the universe, much less life from non life. So I will stick with God and His Word. But you do you.

"Science can't adequately explain the origins of the universe, much less life from non life."

Not yet ...

The “God of the Gaps” argument says: If science cannot explain X, then God must be the explanation.

The "God of the Gaps" argument is a retreat, not a logical, testable argument. To the contrary, it's a logical fallacy—an argument from ignorance. Lack of explanation does not prove an alternative explanation. In the past, people saw god(s) in comets, plagues, and madness. Now we call those astronomy, medicine, and psychiatry. The pattern is clear: the more we learn, the less room there is for a ‘gap-God.’ Science’s power is not that it knows everything, but that it keeps learning. So the honest answer isn’t Imma stick with God. It's "Not Yet."

At one time, science also couldn't explain the common cold, comets, lightening, viruses, eclipses, birth defects, pregnancy, infertility, death, disease, mental disorders, chance, dreams, or any one of a million things. So you had the "god of the gaps" hypothesis where a god had to be responsible for things science couldn't explain. But as science continues to advance (and religion doesn't), that god gets smaller and smaller.

That line comes from Psalm 14:1 (and repeated in Psalm 53:1). Evangelicals often use it as a “mic-drop” against atheists. But it’s worth knowing the actual context and reading it in Hebrew rather than a translation (which is an interpretation) -- so I looked it up!

The Hebrew word translated as “fool” (nabal) does not mean “intellectually deficient” but “morally corrupt.” In its ancient context, the Psalm was condemning wicked or unjust behavior in Israel, not making a philosophical argument against atheism. The psalmist wasn’t debating cosmology but criticizing immorality. And again, billions of people are moral (and many more so) without religion.

Plus it's little more than circular reasoning. That verse assumes the very thing it’s trying to prove. It’s like me writing in a book, ‘Anyone who doubts me is a fool,’ and then holding up the book as evidence.

Many cultures have sacred texts that call unbelievers “fools” or “blind.” If every tradition claims that, they cancel one another out.

Islam
Qur’an 2:171 – Unbelievers are compared to cattle who hear only “calls and cries” without understanding.

Hindu
Bhagavad Gita 7:15 – “The foolish (mudhah), the lowest of men… whose knowledge is stolen by illusion, do not worship Me.”

Zoroastrian Avesta
Yasna 32:5)– calls those who reject Ahura Mazda’s words “deceitful” and “foolish.”

Even Buddhism!
Although Buddhism often frames things less harshly, it also calls those who deny karma or the Dharma “fools”

I could go on ...

Every tradition reinforces belief by branding outsiders as fools. It’s a classic boundary-marker: wisdom is defined as agreeing with this revelation; folly is rejecting it. In interfaith comparison, these claims cancel each other out. So which god makes me the "fool?"