Sssshh! Nothing To See Here.

It's not a tough question

Ideally, neither of them. But Israel should: a) come clean and admit they actually have them, and sign the NPT along with the other 191 member states, including 5 other nuclear-armed nations (US, Russia, China, France, UK), unless they want to join India, Pakistan and North Korea and not sign; and, b) present compelling evidence to the international community that Iran was indeed actively developing nuclear weapons and a threat to Israel was imminent. (I'm not aware they have done this.)

Also, killing 200 civilians and wounding many hundreds more on foreign soil, violating the sovereignty of that nation, carrying out a unilateral, preemptive attack including assassinations, and risking destabilizing the entire region and escalating conflict is not a good look if you're trying to claim the moral high ground and argue that you're acting in self-defence.

I think the country that hates us and wants to destroy us shouldn't have Nuclear Weapons , that's just me

I agree that I don't want Iran to have nukes (whether they're ever crazy enough to use them or not). Even N Korea hasn't used them. Kim Jong Un may be arguably unhinged, but even he's not that crazy. The only country on earth that has ever actually deployed nuclear weapons on a civilian population in a conflict is... the US. And Japan remembers that all too well.

Where we perhaps differ is in how Israel has acted. Iran is famous for slogans like "Death to America". They fund proxies and terrorist activity against Israeli and US targets. We all know this.

Would they actually use a nuke on the Israeli civilian population, or on US targets, or is it a bluff and do they desire them as a deterrent or an ego boost? Have they openly threatened to use nukes to destroy Israel once/if they ever get any? (If they have, I would be grateful for sources, actually.)

I don't think Iran even wants a war with the US. The US military would obliterate them and they know that. (At the same time, I'm pretty confident the US has little appetite for another land invasion in the Middle East, especially after Afghanistan. Iran is very mountainous. It would be carnage for all involved.) Also, I thought Trump's whole schtick was how he wanted to avoid wars?

So I don't want Iran to have nukes, which is run by an authoritarian, theocratic, repressive regime. I also don't want Israel to have them. At the very least, they should come clean and admit either way whether they have them or not (we strongly suspect they do, but how many other countries get away with this kind of ambiguity?). I'm also not sure even Netanyahu is crazy enough to actually use nukes on a civilian population, killing thousands of innocent civilians and assassinations notwithstanding (which, by the way, I'm fairly confident violate international law).

Trump has been posting on social media that he knows where Khamenei lives and could take him out if he wanted (and hints he could well do later). Isn't that a bit chilling? How many other modern Western democracies do you see using extrajudicial killings/assassination of top military and political figures as part of policy? Israel does this all the time. And they don't just kill their targets; they kill their wives, children and other innocent bystanders along with them. Innocent people and arguably a form of collective punishment. Is that the kind of behaviour you expect from a civilized country? Does the UK/France/Germany routinely assassinate foreign leaders?

Netanyahu was a KGB agent sworn to destroy the United States of America.

Classic example of FAFO

Iran is a signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) and has been since 1970. It was cooperating with the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) until a few years ago and allowing intrusive inspections of its nuclear facilities.

In 2015, Iran agreed the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action (JCPOA) to massively reduce their nuclear programme in exchange for reduced sanctions:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Comprehensive_Plan_of_Action

It was Trump that withdrew from that deal in 2018. Since then, Iran has been less cooperative. Similarly, due to the recent attack by Israel, there is now a real possibility Iran will leave the NPT altogether, and no longer be legally obligated to cooperate with any nuclear inspections.

Israel, on the other hand, has never even signed the NPT, does not fully cooperate with IAEA inspections, and pursues a policy of nuclear ambiguity, neither denying nor conforming whether they possess nuclear weapons (but it's widely believed they do, possibly up to 100 or more). Bit hypocritical.

The US officially acknowledged earlier in 2025 (and several times over the years under successive govts) that Iran is not currently pursuing a nuclear bomb. The IAEA also does not believe they are developing one (although Iran's compliance with inspections has dropped since Trump pulled out of the 2015 deal). It's known that Iran has enriched uranium close to weapons-grade, well above that needed for civilian energy generation, but there is no clear evidence they were about to produce a nuclear bomb (or clear statements that, should they develop one, they intend to use it to strike Israel, despite hostile rhetoric towards Israel).

"According to U.S. intelligence assessments, Tehran has the capacity to produce nuclear weapons at some point, but has halted its nuclear weapons program and has not mastered all of the necessary technologies for building such weapons."

https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/IF12106

Israel no doubt has detailed intelligence on Iran that maybe even the US isn't privy to, and claims Iran was weeks/months away from developing a nuclear bomb. But it's not been demonstrated to the international community.

On top of that, Israel attacked preemptively and aside from assassinating key military figures/govt scientists (already a highly controversial action), over 200 people, including mainly innocent Iranian civilians, were killed. I'm not a lawyer, but I suspect that might violate a few international laws.

You didn’t convince me.

What kind of thing would convince you (if at all)?

Truth

Fair enough. I think we all want that. I'm curious if anything I wrote in my longer message above is not truthful or inaccurate. If any of it is, I would welcome genuine feedback to correct any factual errors I may have made. Most of it was just pointing out basic facts.

(I may have simplified some details: Iran ratified the NPT in 1970 but actually signed it in 1968, but that doesn't change the point, which is that Iran is a signatory to the treaty. Whether they have always fully complied with regulations is a bit more complex. I'm just pointing out they have signed it. Unlike Israel, which officially has never even confirmed its own nuclear capability. If another country did that, I wonder how we would view them.)

Do you want more detailed intel on Iran's nuclear programme that presumably Mossad has access to? I'm afraid I can't access that. It seems even Trump isn't aware of it, given that his own administration (along with previous US govts) have stated they do not believe Iran is pursuing a nuclear weapons programme. (At least, that's what they said publicly. But if they are genuinely aware of Iran's secret plans to build a bomb, in violation of the NPT Iran has signed, it seems rather odd, since that would lend further credibility and justification to Israel's attacks, which the US is supporting.)

Do you want more background on why Trump pulled out of the 2015 deal? I only touched on that briefly.

Do you want better, more credible sources? I use Wikipedia just as it's convenient for people to access and gives an easy overview to a lot of topics and links to related ones. But you can find plenty of other sources that confirm the same thing.

From Trump's own administration, outlining his reasons for pulling out of the treaty:

https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-joint-comprehensive-plan-action/

But I simply stated that the JCPOA existed, and that Trump withdrew from it in 2018. I didn't comment much on the rationale.

Are you skeptical of the civilian casualties in Tehran? As it's reported by Iranian sources? If you can find a non-partisan source, I'd love to see that. I've read a bunch of stories of the innocent civilians killed. One story that is doing the rounds is a young Iranian girl called Parnia Abbas, who was reportedly killed along with her family by an Israeli airstrike. You can track those people down and check if they're still alive.

Iran funding terrorist proxies? Not disputing that.

What flag?

You mean Israel? You can say the name, you know. We're not a police state, yet. I've been there. Great place. Even if I don't condone their lunatic government.

I have no problem with the Israeli flag. I don't generally care for flags anyway. People take them way too seriously IMHO. I personally couldn't give a flying F what you do with my country's flag. Spit on it. Burn it all you want. I don't give a flying f**k. But I guess I differ on that with some Americans. I don't worship my flag. It's just a symbol.

I pointed out some details and provided some sources (admittedly, Wikipedia is not the most credible source).

They weren't convinced. That's fine. I'm just curious what *would* possibly convince them. Assuming they're open to rational discourse, that is. I can't change someone's deeply held partisan beliefs, especially if religion comes into it. Nor do I wish to. Got better things to do.

All I know is I just watched 200 absolutely innocent ordinary Iranian civilians get killed by Israeli airstrikes on the pretext that this was an act of preemptive self-defence based on unsubstantiated evidence that Iran poses an imminent existential threat to Israel. With no credible evidence presented to the international community to justify this latest act of unprovoked aggression.

And I find that wholly unconvincing and, frankly, deeply immoral. But Netanyahu isn't exactly the global poster boy for Human Rights Champion of the Century. He should be in the Hague. Or, by his own morality, we should just assassinate him, like he does to so many people he disagrees with, in flagrant violation of international law. But that would be stooping to his barbaric, animalistic level. The man is arguably a monster. I don't know if justice will ever happen, but I pray that the world will see some sense while he's still alive.

Milosevic, Gaddafi, Hussein. We all agreed these were tyrants. But we let Netanyahu act with impunity and get away with the most outrageous human rights violations. The only reason he's not in prison for war crimes is because he's best buds with the global superpower and millions of Americans support him no matter what because they arguably have a distorted understanding of what being a Christian really means. I think they need to read their Bible a bit better.

I'm a human. And I value other human life and I don't care where you're from or what colour you are. I can't speak for people who don't share those values. So I can't reason with that.

I don't give a shit where he lived or what languages he speaks. I only care about backing up your sources and being a human being who doesn't condone mass slaughter of innocents. (If you do, then I admit it's a bit harder to debate with you. We're not quite on the same page.)

I can quote Hebrew and Arabic language too if he wants. Try me.

In fact, I welcome that. We'll see who knows their case endings.

This meme didn’t age very well, my boy. We’ve now found out that Iran’s nuclear weapons program wasn’t just “claimed,” they actually admitted to having enough 60% enriched uranium to make 11 nuclear warheads after enriching to weapons grade. When the US and Israel decided to shut the regime and their nuclear program down, the IRGC decided it would be a good idea to bomb all of their middle-east neighbors’ civilian populations indiscriminately. This shows very clearly just how unhinged and malevolent that regime really is. If they were allowed to obtain nuclear weapons there is no question it would lead to catastrophe.

I have plenty of criticisms of Israel’s government, but trying to liken them to the IRGC is just not an accurate comparison. Iran funds many terror groups who intentionally hide among civilian populations, in schools and hospitals, to intentionally make it look bad when Israel or the US strikes them. When Israel is going to bomb one of these terror cells, they drop leaflets warning the civilians in the area to leave. Would the Iranian regime ever drop warnings like that? F**k no. They intentionally aim at civilian targets where no military forces are even hiding, with no warning at all. They even do it to nations they weren’t previously at war with, just to try to make the other nations put pressure on the US and Israel to stop. If you look into their actual bat-s**t crazy ideology you find out they’re causing all of this chaos intentionally to bring about the end times and the return of their messiah.

The US and Israel absolutely have the right to defend themselves against such a violent and schizophrenic regime, who slaughters their own unarmed citizens by the tens of thousands for simply not wanting to live under an islamo-fascist dictatorship any longer.

This meme is 9 months old lol. Only just been born. 🐣 Give it a chance, Dad! And what's with people reporting all my comments this week and getting me timers for being too rude?

Self-deprecating dark humor not a thing round these parts, huh? I'm including myself in half these "insults" btw and I've also seen far worse on here, y'all, no offense. My bad for not making it explicit that I'm not addressing individuals, I guess. Anyway, fine. Let's all play nice.

I agree with you on the Iranian regime being tyrants who have oppressed and slaughtered their own people for years. So do millions of Iranians, probably, which is why I expect a lot of people (including Iranians I know) wouldn't exactly be sad to see the Ayatollahs fall, putting it mildly.

A forced regime change via aerial bombardment by foreign powers that puts innocent Iranian lives at risk, though? Not sure that's quite what the average engineer in Tehran with a wife and kids was hoping for while driving to the office a few weeks ago.

Unhinged, yes. Funding terrorist groups, militias and proxies, also yes. Friends with Russia and China which have their own human rights issues, yes. Causing "trouble" (I mean that euphemistically) and likely posing an existential threat to the State of Israel, yes. 

(Inb4 I'd argue Israel also poses just a *bit* of an existential threat to quite a few innocent Palestinians and others, but let's save that for a different debate coz it's endless and we know no one agrees on that and that litttle "debate" will probably still be raging when I'm also dead and buried... )

Then again, the US and Israel have also done that, no? Didn't N once tolerate Islamist groups that ultimately led us to groups like Hamas? The US once helped arm the Mujahideen against the Soviets and then we ended up with Al Qaeda and the Taliban, if I'm not mistaken. And 9/11.

Along with power vacuums in Syria and Iraq following our invasions, and we all remember the "fun" (again, dark humor here) we had with ISIS, who thankfully seem to have mostly been taken care of. 

Then there's Britain's involvement with the Shah way back (good old oil money) and we ultimately got the Iranian Revolution, so here we are...

Batsh*t crazy theocrats, absolutely. Messianic End-Times ideology? Possibly. But I think a few of Israel's hardline leaders might also be accused of that, to be fair (along with some rather disturbing public statements, I might add).

I don’t report people for comments, it’s lame as hell. I’ve had three 8 hour bans in the past 2 days myself for very mild comments. I think the mods just randomly comb through all the comments posted and hand out bans for anything that could be considered even remotely insulting. It’s going to kill this platform. I mostly use 9gag now.

I’m not a fan of the government in Israel. I don’t like the amount of influence they have in the US, and that they have been caught spying on our government. That said, the Iranian regime is far, far worse in my opinion. Given a choice between the two I’m siding with Israel every time. To me, Israel is like a peeping tom who steals stuff from time to time, and Iran is like a deranged psychopath hell bent on destroying not only me but all of my friends.

And yeah the US has done plenty of bad things in the past. I read Confessions Of An Economic Hit Man by John Perkins 20 years ago which educated me on how the US wields power over foreign governments to make them comply with what we want, or else. The difference is, we the people elect a new president who is head of the military every 4 years. The people running things now are not the same people who were running things then. Sure, some of the bureaucrats and power players are the same, but the people who actually have the power to set foreign policy are constantly being replaced at a maximum every 8 years. In Iran, it’s the same dictator for decades on end running everything, and when he dies, the same extremist mullahs select a new one who is guaranteed to be in lock step with their schizophrenic agenda. So I would argue that the continuity of blame for past bad actions of is far more solid and identifiable with Iran than the US or Israel.

Along with Netanyahu who seems to have been in charge an awfully long time for what's supposed to be a democracy...

Even if he keeps somehow winning elections. I thought maximum term limits were supposed to be a thing in developed nations?

(18+ years now with a little break in between? Hamas "won" an election in 2006 after bumping off a few of their rivals and chucking people off roofs, so that puts them at around 19 years, even if they haven't exactly been democratic since (if ever).

And I know full well this won't change anyone's mind who thinks 2 million Gazan civilians are indirectly responsible for their leaders' actions and by extension deserve to be caught up in these conflicts.

(And yes, inb4 a big chunk *do* still support Hamas and have a number of what I'd wager both you and I would deem "questionable" and disturbing views, shall we say (because I've seen the interviews on YT), just as a ton of Israelis still support Netanyahu's war(s) and millions of ordinary Russians still support Putin's war in Ukraine.)

But a friendly reminder that half of Gaza's population that are getting bombed to shit and made homeless or orphaned have never voted for them anyway, given they weren't old enough to vote (bit hard to vote while still a fetus) and Gaza has one of the youngest populations on the planet.

Turkey's Erdogan is coming up to ~23 if I'm not mistaken. Putin wins at 26. 💪

Iran was at least actually cooperating to a fair extent with international weapons inspections til Mr Trump pulled out of talks, if I recall.

Then he bombed Fordow and the regime apparently moved a bunch of their uranium stockpiles just days before.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_withdrawal_from_the_Joint_Comprehensive_Plan_of_Action

Good job too, coz we don't want another Chernobyl on our hands, or at least a nuclear fallout and radiation poisoning.

Catch is now no one knows where it is and they'll presumably carry on and push harder to enrich from 60% to 90% weapons-grade in secret, which doesn't take long btw once you reach 60%, and they still have the expertise despite Israel taking out a bunch of their scientists, which they're very good at, despite it breaching a few rules last I checked. 🤔

Because good luck getting them to cooperate again any time soon, or at least not til this war ends and people get back to the negotiations table and try to tone down the testosterone and desire for "revenge" and pride on all sides.

So I think that may have "backfired" a bit, personally. And call me naive, as I'm sure many will (I could well be, to be fair), but I don't think even the Ayatollahs are actually crazy enough for a full-scale nuclear war because they know they'd get obliterated (as would all of us), eschatological beliefs notwithstanding.

Nukes stop people bombing you. No nuclear-armed power has ever used nukes on another, and a friendly reminder that, despite fears of "rogue nations" getting WMDs, the *only* nation in human history to ever actually use the Bomb (mainly on civilians) is the US in Japan in WW2 (twice, for good measure), even though some historians argue Japan was about to surrender anyway, but why not test your toys first, eh?

So I ask you: who is the real risk here? Discuss. Or visit Hiroshima/Nagasaki and ask the Japanese what they think. It's an eerie, sobering place if you ever get the chance and obviously I've been there.

North Korea gets it (and even Lil Kim has never been loony enough to actually use them). But it's interesting no one's tried invading him since, huh?

Ukraine learned this lesson to their peril when they gave them up.

Similar logic to US gun culture, perhaps, which ironically I'm generally opposed to and forever getting downvoted to, uh, oblivion on here whenever I dare to criticize it lol.

People think twice before breaking into your home if they know you have firearms. Or if they do, they presumably get what's coming to them.

So good luck if the burglar's got a semi-automatic rifle and you only have a big box of kitchen knives and darts to throw at them (aka stockpiles of ballistic missiles that don't even hit their target half the time).

Meanwhile, Israel almost certainly has nukes as we all know and won't even admit to it and has never allowed inspections. 👀

Bit hypocritical, no? One of the only countries that isn't a party to the NPT. I note the West isn't bombing their nuclear facilities...

And I wonder how many other countries (if any) could get away with that policy of deliberate ambiguity.

And yes, I also agree bombing US/UK/Israeli or other targets in Gulf countries not even involved in the conflict is unacceptable, whether military or otherwise.

(Certainly doesn't make for good neighborly relations, at any rate.)

I also do not condone retaliatory (and yes, indiscriminate, as you say) saturation-bombing of civilians in Tel Aviv that have resulted in casualties.

Far fewer than have been killed by the US and Israel, but I don't believe in taking sides for the sake of it, so a single civilian casualty, whoever they may be, is too many for me, actually. So that may also constitute a war crime on Iran's part. And obviously without Israel's advanced air defenses (Iron Dome/David's Sling/Arrow) and shelters and readiness for permawar, casualties and damage would no doubt be far higher and the consequences horrifying.

So the Iranian regime is also probably breaking a few rules of engagement.

Unhinged theocrats, remember? Too bad the civilian populations living under Israel's enemies don't have access to that kind of tech, but anyway. 💀

War crimes all round, it seems. And where are the lawyers? Or the toothless UN, who don't seem to do much and probably couldn't break up a brawl in a bar between two drunk friends, let alone do what they were founded to do and actually stop conflicts. A trip to the dentist might be in order.

But again I'm not sure attacking US military bases in Qatar is on a par with Israel's assassinations of Iranian scientists (which I have a feeling violates an international law or two, even if they'd presumably argue they're non-civilian by being involved in the weapons program.

Just as Hamas (and many of its supporters across the globe) presumably argue all Israeli citizens are legitimate military targets given Israel has compulsory military service for most of the population.

(Pretty sure the toddlers aren't running around playing war games at the barracks, though.)

Plus, they're breaking their own Islamic rules because that's not allowed in the religion they claim to profess and Islam has strict rules on that, believe it or not.

So those "martyrs" might get a little "wake-up call" when/if they wake up in the Hereafter and don't get the "72 virgins" they were hoping for (which is mostly a myth anyway, by the way, and not part of standard Islamic doctrine).

But that's for Allah/God* to decide, not me.

*Theological differences aside, of course, at least the word itself, "Allah", just means "God" in Arabic for most practical purposes and even Arabic-speaking Christians (and Jews) use it in their translation of the Bible as well as in daily life.

It's literally in the first verse of Genesis and I'll happily send you a link if you're so inclined.

So Islamists ≠ Muslims.

These recent US-led attacks have now killed well over 1000 innocent Iranian civilians, and wounded and displaced countless more, so here we go again with mostly Muslim refugees Western countries can argue about again (and blame them for "invading" us and imposing their Islamic culture and Shariah values on us or committing crimes or leaching off taxpayers, etc, etc).

And also ignore all the non-Muslim or secular/atheist/gay Iranians or those of other faiths or none. Because Iran also has Zoroastrians, Bahá'ís and even an ancient Jewish community, among others.

And back to Israel, let's not even get started on the absolute carnage in Gaza along with annexing territory that doesn't belong to Israel as per UN rules, and deaths of civilians in the WB because that's on a whole nother level and we'd be here arguing over it for weeks (or years), as I said, and as the world has done for 75 years.

Israel claims to drop fliers every time before obliterating your home. They love to go on about this (as if it assuages their violations of international law (but that's up to the courts to decide if they ever get round to it).

Along with claiming the line about "human shields" a lot.

(Again, we know Hamas has indeed also hunkered down in hospitals and schools and and has committed its own share of war crimes (again, take it to the courts) so that's a big debate for a different day.

Anyway, how gracious of them lol.

I'm sure you'd be totally cool with getting a package of papers crash outside your street late one night/early morning while you're asleep, with under 1 hour to evacuate your loved ones and all your worldly possessions before your home gets turned to dust and you can't claim on insurance, assuming you even saw/heard the warning at all.

What about the disabled, elderly and sick?

Seems a lot of them aren't getting the messages coz quite a few kids have been given an early "free state burial" under rubble. 💀

(Sorry, sick gallows humor keeps me going because I actually care too deeply about the loss of innocent life, on *all sides* and I've worked with kids a lot and also have relatives that age, kids the same age as the innocent ones that got vaporized by Trump's freedom bombs for which he'll never be held accountable even though in any sane universe he'd be at Nuremberg).

More deeply than people reading this may care/choose to believe who assume I'm just being a flippant jerk.

You sort of have to when dealing with this or you might really lose your sanity and humanity as well as your soul.)

Kids maybe the same age as your own children or nephews, if you have any.

So I take this stuff "deadly" seriously despite facetious appearances and debating on a meme site instead of Reddit.

Anyway, you get another upvote, Dad, for an actual long (but not quite as long as mine lol), civil and thought-out response despite our differences of opinion and worldviews.

But, like I said, I actually agree with you on quite a few points because, thankfully it seems we share some basic values and probably want what most sensible, decent humans in every country/land want at the end of the day – those of us who aren't warmongering nutjobs or too ideologically bound to be reasoned with, anyway. 🙏

Also PS F*ck the word count on this place omg.