Why is a supposed LGBTQ friendly party allying with someone who harassed the LGBTQ community and users on multiple occasions?

🤭

You can have radical people in your party

It does not mean they are supported by everyone in the party (or no one)

It’s one thing to have radicals in your party, every party has them; it’s quite another to have radicals running the party itself.

For someone who runs the Lgbtq stream, [Sloth] thinks otherwise

As someone who is actually LGBTQ (bisexual), I think otherwise

Then how come you don't follow the stream?

Same reason I don't follow every single Star Wars stream despite being a Star Wars fan or every single political stream despite being active in the political community. I'm just not interested in following it.

I’ve thought long and hard about this. I’ve clashed with IG repeatedly and over a long period of time on this very issue. As you know, I left PRESIDENTS for a time and founded my own competing stream, because I felt this one was becoming hostile to LGBTQ people, in part because of people like him. You criticized me harshly for that at the time, labeling me a secessionist.

I questioned him and he answered forthrightly and directly, which is something I have always about him. He will tell you what he thinks and not sugar-coat it. I basically determined this:

IG believes his religion tells him that being LGBTQ is a sin. He believes that deeply and, apparently, sincerely. I disagree with him strongly on that point. Does this make him homophobic, even if he never goes out of his way to harm a gay person? According to some definitions, yes.

However, there are different degrees of homophobe.

—There are those like IG who, basically, don’t want the government to be able to require churches like his to marry gay people. I disagree with him on that — but that’s just the “radical Leftist” in me, I suppose.

—But then there are homophobes like WhiteNat who would tell you, basically, that LGBTQ people should be tortured and electroshocked into giving up their orientations. If those methods fail, then LGBTQ people should be wiped off the face of the planet.

Personally, I feel can agree to disagree when it comes to homophobes who just don’t want the government entering their church.

However, I will never tolerate virulent homophobes like WhiteNat.

If/when IG sees this, he can tell me if I have that about right.

Eyy, when you secede from a country, don't be surprised when you get called out for being a secessionist. I've seen you do the exact same thing to Confederate sympathizers, but I don't call you out for that because the Confederates were secessionists and traitors and you are absolutely right to call them out for it.

The government should not force churches to perform gay marriages; that's a violation of the First Amendment. If you want a gay marriage, go to the county clerk's office, see if there's a church or other house of worship who will voluntarily marry you, or get in contact with a Justice of the Peace. It's not like churches have a monopoly on marriage.

You haven't answered the question about why you are supporting someone who you admit is a homophobe despite being a supposed ally of the LGBTQ community. There are other parties who offer full support to LGBTQ such as Kaiju, why not support them?

I think Kaiju is awesome. Both their major members are mods of PoliticsTOO so I trust them fully. I love the newspaper and meme school ideas. It was a really difficult decision not to support them. I love Godzilla memes haha, it’s a great mascot. But at the end of the day, I only have one vote to give.

Swallowing my own ideological pride, I have to admit this RUP conservative government has brought more stability than this stream has seen in a long time. RUP’s members are very experienced knowledge-wise about modding this difficult stream at this point.

SuGaS of EYM recently joined my new N.E.R.D. Party. Maybe Kaiju will one day as well, though I’d hate to lose Kaiju from a roleplay perspective since they play such a good liberal party.

You mean the instability caused by the Politifakes, one of the most vile harassment campaigns (that you supported btw) ever seen on Imgflip against users like Envoy, Scar, Lachancla, Andrew, and countless others? Or are you referring to the guy who gets deleted right away and hasn’t been an issue for months?

I think those Politifake people went overboard. Taught me a thing or two. The atmosphere is better with them gone.

But I won’t pretend that Politifake.Inc were somehow worse than WN and whatever gang was behind this weird activity (I believe it was likely more then one person, because Jesus, who creates that many Imgflip accounts) spreading Holocaust denial and advocating ethnic cleansing and impersonating our streamers right and left.

The Politifakes may have been rude as hell but were they using Imgflip to advocate political decisions that if implemented would cause millions to die? I don’t recall ever seeing that.

But what do I know. Y’all are the geniuses. No one ever tells me shit. :)

As far as I’m aware, all true WN accounts were tied to one IP address in the UK. So most likely, it was the work of 1 person. It appears your Politifake buddies were the real culprits behind the impersonator accounts; they were certainly behind the fake Envoys.

“But I won’t pretend that Politifake.Inc were somehow worse than WN”

Yeah they were. As far as I’m concerned, a direct attack against another user is always highest priority. That’s what your Politifake buddies did, they ran a months long harassment campaign against multiple users that resulted in multiple people leaving Imgflip. WN gets banned right away before he really gets a chance to cause trouble, therefore he’s not as much of a threat as far as harassment is concerned.

“But what do I know. Y’all are the geniuses. No one ever tells me shit. :)”

Gee I wonder why… If you didn’t have such a long history of harassment, biased moderations, posting porn and nudity, blatant disregard for TOS, threatening legal battles against Imgflip, admitting to being a troll, having children fight your battles for you, and general sliminess, maybe we would keep you in the loop more :)

I'm in the East Coast
I think Pr1ce is in Kansas or Arkansas
IG is in the States
Sloth is in the East Coast

that's what my memory

No, IG is British.

Illinois

Born and raised in the South. Now in the Midwest — the middle of everywhere! :)

ayy, i’m from the midwest too

If Politifake Inc. can be directly tied to any impersonation of memers, then that’s certainly wrong. And if that’s how Imgflip thinks about all this, okay.

But I guess I’m an idealist. To me, you can’t fall farther morally speaking than being a Nazi. Not possible. Even if you’re a jerk who impersonates others — incidentally, I’ve had my account impersonated on Imgflip too, it’s per-se harassment in my book and I know how annoying it is, so I’m not saying that lightly.

Guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on the rest. :)

It’s important to note this: If you believe government cannot and should not force churches to perform gay marriages, then you believe the exact same thing as IG on this.

As a libertarian, perhaps on many other topics in what the government ought to do to enforce gay rights, you believe the exact same thing.

Again, it’s a violation of the First Amendment. The government forcing houses of worship to violate their beliefs is a violation of freedom of religion. Any County Clerk or Justice of the Peace can perform a marriage and there are also houses of worship that will voluntarily perform gay marriages. This is sixth grade civics class material; as someone who claims to be a lawyer, I would think you would know this. So what if I agree with IG on some things, that doesn’t mean I support him. Even you and I can find common ground occasionally and we aren’t exactly endorsing each other anytime soon.

I want you to consider this deeply. You’ve confirmed again that you believe the same thing as IG on this religious liberty vs. gay rights topic. Churches can’t be required to marry gay people. (You’re deflecting to the civil marriage license option, but that’s not an adequate solution for gay people who are religious and require a ceremony to fulfill that religious belief.)

So what makes *his* stance on this homophobic, and what makes *your* stance on this enlightened and non-homophobic?

Is it because IG’s is rooted in a religious belief while yours is not?

It doesn’t matter: it ends in the same place. You both believe that certain institutions in society cannot be forced to fully accommodate gay people.

And yes, full accommodation means just that. Full accommodation. No personal belief exception. No religious exception. No marriage exception. No Ayn Randian, “I’m just not gonna serve gay people at my private business because I am a capitalist superhuman and I can do whatever I want.” It means fully and completely acknowledging gay and trans people as full citizens everywhere they go. In public places, in private places, in religious spaces, right into the inner sanctum. Everywhere.

Does that sound radical? You’re not wrong. It is.

“(You’re deflecting to the civil marriage license option, but that’s not an adequate solution for gay people who are religious and require a ceremony to fulfill that religious belief.)”

Liar. I specifically said “and there are also houses of worship that will voluntarily perform gay marriages.” If you are willingly participating in an organization that believes your lifestyle is a violation of what they fundamentally believe, you have no one to blame but yourself when they refuse to perform the service for you.

“So what makes *his* stance on this homophobic, and what makes *your* stance on this enlightened and non-homophobic?”

There’s nothing homophobic about protecting the First Amendment and freedom of religion. People have a right to practice their religion provided they aren’t doing something barbaric like human sacrifices. You know perfectly well nobody is saying that is what makes IG a homophobe. He’s a homophobe due to his stated belief that homosexuality is a sin, as well as his multiple instances of harassment of pro-LGBTQ memers and the LGBTQ stream. He even resorted to making up false pedophile accusations against at least a few people.

“It doesn’t matter: it ends in the same place. You both believe that certain institutions in society cannot be forced to fully accommodate gay people.”

Yeah that’s the point, genius. People have a First Amendment right to practice their religious beliefs. I don’t have to agree with what they believe, but that’s the great thing about the First Amendment: I CAN disagree with it! Go ahead and preach pro-LGBTQ values in an authoritarian theocracy like Iran, Afghanistan, or pretty much anywhere else in the Middle East, see how well it goes for you. Maybe then you’ll start appreciating the freedoms all US citizens are entitled to.

“And yes, full accommodation means just that. Full accommodation. No personal belief exception. No religious exception. No marriage exception. Etc…”

Thanks for confirming once again you are an authoritarian and are the last person who should ever be entrusted with even the tiniest crumb of power.

Man this is making me laugh 🤣

I see the root behind the la Being authoritarian

You can’t tell people to go down the street to a different house of worship to get a gay marriage. Or, you can — but then you’re endorsing the same logic that says private businesses can send gay people down the street to a different one. Where does it end? We know what that ends in, historically: segregation.

What makes a church different from anywhere else? The First Amendment. You and IG both agree on this. The First Amendment provides a religious exception to accommodating gay people in church.

Then why doesn’t the First Amendment allow for a religious exception to accommodating racial minorities in church? What makes that any different, other than the fact black people won their civil rights in the ‘60s (from a pure legal perspective) whereas gay and trans people are still winning their rights today?

Why doesn’t the First Amendment’s “freedom of association clause” mean that any private business can deny service to any paying customer for any reason or no reason at all?

Deep questions. Resolving these questions in favor of the paying customer’s Liberty rather than the shopkeeper’s Liberty does not make me an authoritarian. Either option imposes a kind of authoritarianism.

“You can’t tell people to go down the street to a different house of worship to get a gay marriage.”

I just did. Cope.

“Where does it end? We know what that ends in, historically: segregation.”

Considering your side is actively trying to bring segregation back, I don’t see why you’re complaining, you’re getting exactly what you wanted.

“Why doesn’t… blah blah blah…”

Because judges weighed in on cases with their rulings.

Now how about we get back on topic with how you support someone who is a serial harasser of LGBTQ users despite you claiming to be an LGBTQ ally?

“Segregation”: Man! Now you’ve really exited the realm of reality and entered that of MTG’s anti-vaxxing. No, inflammatory rhetoric about public health policies designed to prevent thousands of deaths won’t fly with me. Temporary restrictions with an obvious public health purpose aren’t equivalent to walking around as a branded person your entire life the way black people were made to do.

The fact you’re able to spout such utter nonsense while convincing people you are reasonable is a triumph of conservative propagandizing.

Good job! :)

“I am doubtful you can find *Democrats* — actual elected ones — who want race-based segregation.”

You didn’t specify a time limit :)
https://i.imgflip.com/5keqm0.jpg

But for real, you seem a little obsessed with Marjorie Taylor-Greene. I don’t personally care for her either, but you seem really obsessed with her.

WTF are you talking about? I’m referring to the leftists who have been saying Africans were better off under segregation and are pushing for a return to segregation in the name of Black Lives Matter.

I guess you didn’t hear about this one then? :)

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nymag.com/intelligencer/amp/2021/07/greene-compares-covid-vaccine-requirements-to-segregation.html

That’s what I’m referring to. Trying to characterize Covid measures as segregation.

As for your claim. Sounds like made-up nonsense. If there are uneducated 16-year-old “Leftists” (or just as likely, Rightists posing as “Leftists”) posing as pro-segregationists, feel free to send me a link to that content and I’m happy to post to the Cringe_Left stream. (I call out Leftists, too!)

But the Democratic Party isn’t “Leftist.” It isn’t! No matter what politics stream front page says today! :)

It’s a moderate social Democratic party where everyone pays a bit more taxes to have a bit more equal access to healthcare, and similar plane-leveling but hardly plane-erasing policies.

I am doubtful you can find *Democrats* — actual elected ones — who want race-based segregation.

As for “harassment,” I haven’t seen IG on LGBTQ stream in months. In terms of problems, we have no problems.

We’re approving tons of memes and dealing with all sorts of drama and issues on a weekly basis, and I’ve never seen IG’s name pop up in the last several months of me being a mod.

I realize IG may never be LGBTQ’s warmest fuzziest friend, and he’s certainly made many statements I disapprove of, but what are we actually talking about in terms of actual harassment?

He really loudly proclaimed LGBTQ the “enemies of the people” in that meme Pepe Party has been reposting over and over again, but did he actually do anything actively to attack them?

More context may be needed. Did LGBTQ people attack him one day first because of his reputation? Because that sometimes happens, and I would definitely discourage LGBTQ people harassing ‘Flippers who are minding their own business, because that’s wrong too, and has a way of coming back.

It’s a big stream, I don’t see everything going on, but to my knowledge IG has abandoned any “harassment” that he once did.

People can change their ways and bury hatchets. When they do, then it’s up to us then to change and bury ours.

Did you not see where I stated he made false pedophile accusations against pro-LGBTQ users? Ask him about it.

“People can change their ways and bury hatchets. When they do, then it’s up to us then to change and bury ours.”

Ah, but one must remember to be vigilant and keep their defenses up lest it be a dirty trick. Always a good idea to have another hatchet on the ready.

[Initial objection that attacking IG for this violates the mudslinging rule, but it’s important]

That’s deplorable — and I also remember an entire account (ChildAbuserPreventer/AbusePreventer) that was dedicated to pushing the anti-LGBTQ “save the children” myth in a really aggressive way, which Imgflip eventually realized was itself abusive and deleted. I and many other LGBTQ-ers were on that from the get-go.

But again, if IG has stopped and hasn’t done that for months, then what am I supposed to do? Hate him forever?

Well, then I’d have a loooooong list of other Imgflippers I’d also hate to hate forever for similar things. Including some others who are here.

—HCP Crusaders have launched “crusades” that I didn’t agree with. Other groups around Imgflip like PornPolice have done similar (even though they both also catch real TOS violations too).
—Kaiju Party anglophobia scandal
—Pepe Party’s chummy history with RichardChill, abusive troll etc., as well as CG’s outrageous and disgusting Monica Lewinsky BJ attack ad just the other night on Wubbzy, a conservative Catholic high-schooler? (Definitely could be a scandal but we’re all sick of even thinking about it)

I could go on… and that’s just PRESIDENTS… getting into all the harassment I’ve seen on politics stream and elsewhere on Imgflip would take several book lengths.

IG is one of the lesser offenders in my opinion, certainly these days.

Yeah you have that about right. I'm morally opposed to gay marriage, but I'm not a gay hater like WN because hatred is also a sin.