When they want to slime modern-day Democrats with slavery but still have SERIOUS CONCERNS about the way Lincoln ended it

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This AbbeyNormal is a remarkably astute historian of paleoconservative right-wing revisionism

Verbose and cogent yet no less deluded

I couldn't reply to your compliment you gave me on our discussion about Trump's COVID response, so I'm commandeering this thread. If you blocked my ability to respond then I apologize for butting in, but I wanted to thank you for being civil and reasoned in turn. I agree I'm working my butt off to defend a man whose personal (and often professional) decisions are ones with which I do not often agree. I try to defend him because I agree with his core principles, or at least the ones he has supported during his term, more than I do with that of Biden and Harris. This doesn't necessarily mean I oppose everything they support, or support everything Trump does (Why oh why couldn't he just have condemned white supremacy during the debate??? It wasn't that hard!!!), it's just a matter of more red stars aligning than blue.

Anyways, thank you good sir. It's refreshing to see someone who can accept the opposing views of someone else. I went and upvoted your responses as a token of my appreciation. Cheers.

It astounds me that people on boths sides of the aisle can't just agree to end all slavery because it's a basic degradation of humanity...nobody was concerned about how we dealt with Hitler, why should anyone care about the legality of how we ended slavery? It not existing should be requisite to the existence of this country. Have an upvote.

yeah, the fact we are still relitigating the end of the Civil War and, in particular, the way conservatives are using the political divisions of 160 years ago to bootstrap an argument that modern-day Democrats are the real racists is pretty disheartening

I just deleted a comment here parroting the lie that "Democrats founded the KKK" which I've seen a zillion times

(Well, yes and no -- it was an organization of embittered defeated Confederate soldiers, basically, and it held way too much power in America for far too long as did their retrograde ideas -- see, Jim Crow era -- but no, the KKK was never an official arm of either party)

Agreed. The KKK official arm of either party, and comparing either party of today to the one of decades or a century ago is flawed to the extreme...yes, the Democrats of that era ran on 'clean America' ethos and quietly fueled white supremacist organizations, as well as pushing Jim Crow laws and generally making life hell for blacks...that's all in the history books. Democrats today have publicly flipped the coin. Can't compare the two. Similarly, the Republican party of today has lost sight of its original views and is arguably now more invested in corporate rights than private and state rights, not to mention it's completely abandoned any pretense of reining in government spending. The Republican party needs to return to its roots, and the Democrat platform needs to focus less on huge government (my opinion for both).

Most of my info from that era is based off of Ron Chernow's 'Grant', whose sources (I checked most of them) were solid. I wish everyone would read it...we'd see an end to this baseless, 'ThE PaRtY nEeDs tO aPoLoGiZe' nonsense...the people who did wrong are all dead.

ah yes, great book.

Have to admit I lost interest after the Civil War and didn't read on to his Presidency, though I'd like to return to it since the post-Civil War era is just as important in understanding what the hell happened to make it take another 100 years for blacks to even begin to be considered equal citizens in this country

That book cannot be recommended highly enough, though finishing it is a slog for sure. I myself am primarily a military historian and thought I too would enjoy the Civil War bits the most...they certainly were illuminating, but his actions as President catapulted him from 'meh' status to , "This is my second-favorite president of all time." His was truly an incredible story, and seeing how his trusting nature destroyed his career and tarnished his historical impact is deeply saddening.

The other thing that ought to shut down the racist slime tossed at modern-day Democrats is realizing Lincoln himself was no saint on race issues. This is my go-to quote for that.

He gave this textbook recitation of white supremacy at a Lincoln-Douglas debate. Now, he certainly evolved as President but evidence indicates his evolution was driven by at least equal parts pragmatism as idealism.

As Chernow spelled out in his book, the North was motivated to fight by one thing and one thing only: The correct observation that the Confederacy were traitors to the flag. White people in the North did not take up arms en masse because they wanted to free the slaves.

But Lincoln did realize the inherent connectedness of the Civil War and slavery, as did everyone with a brain, frankly. "Compromise" after "compromise" on the issue of slavery over the preceding decades led up to it.

Freeing the Southern slaves midway through the war was a shrewd political tactic that helped give the North the moral high ground, and it cost Lincoln himself nothing, as the South was not officially under his jurisdiction anyway.

However, passing the 13th and 14th Amendments after the war, certainly nothing forced Lincoln to do those. That showed leadership and moral courage.

Most definitely. It had to have been gut-wrenching for him when he offered to allow slavery in exchange for preserving the Union...I suppose dedication to the flag like that is honorable, but I do think it was the wrong call. The South of course blew it by shelling Sumter, and the rest is history.