Even after the peace treaty idiots still attack

Unless and until you respect non-passing trans people you're disrespecting everyone. You don't know their story. They might've just come out and be still transitioning. This might be their interpretation of gender. Not every woman is plastic and lipstick - why should every trans woman have to be?

I had a coworker who identified as a woman, but didn't present as a female in any way whatsoever, and had more facial hair than I do. My coworkers and I were all forced to she/her this person for 4 months.

We all tried our best to respect this person's gender identity, but this person gave zero respect to us in return.

After 3.5 months, this person came within a hair of getting fired for making basically rapey comments about me to my coworkers. This person quit by their own will a few weeks later.

It's now been over a year since I first met this person, and I'm aware that they still have made no serious efforts to begin transitioning, and still won't even shave their mustache.

You claim that I only respect trans people I find attractive. That is false. Blaire White passes as a woman, but I don't find her exceptionally attractive and she is not my type. The same is true for Rose of Dawn, Theryn Meyer, and Miss London.

I don't find the vast majority of transmen sexually appealing, but I respect the ones who pass as men.

There have to be solid boundaries as to who is really trans. Treating all claims of being trans as valid opens up the door to all kinds of abuse. I can't agree that there are no fixed characteristics of appearance and behavior of being a woman.

And again we go with the one bad example to justify not even trying. Yes, there are assholes in any group of people and some of them happen to be trans. But their comments about you are a completely seperate issue to their preferred pronouns. It is not ok to make rapey comments about anyone when they don't want that. But then you tell them to stop and, if they still don't stop, take it to your boss (or whoever takes care of things like that). But I'm guessing if it were a cis man who made those comments you wouldn't suddenly start calling him a she.

"And again we go with the one bad example to justify not even trying. Yes, there are assholes in any group of people and some of them happen to be trans. But their comments about you are a completely seperate issue to their preferred pronouns"

This person acted like their trans status gave them a special pass. After 4 months of this person being an asshole to everyone, we were tired of playing the pronouns game, including the manager and assistant manager, who are a gay man and lesbian woman respectively. When this person quit, none of us were sad to see this weirdo go.

How can you justify getting upset because strangers (such as our customers) have 'misgendered' you when they don't know your situation, and you're not bothering to present as the gender you identify as in any way.

And is there even any moral obligation to use someone's preferred pronouns when they aren't physically present? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAD7qwIlyBk

Do you think it's a good idea to treat all claims of being trans as valid? Do you think the GameStop clerk was in the wrong for 'misgendering' Tiffany Michelle Moore? Do you think the beauticians are being discriminatory for not wanting to wax Jessica Yaniv's balls, or the gynecologists for not wanting to check Yaniv's p**is and testicles? Do you think it's ok for a male who identifies as a woman but is completely non-presenting, or just barely presenting to stroll on into the women's bathroom? Do you think someone like Harvey Weinstein should be moved to a women's prison if he started going by she/her?

You're just piling on more things about this one person. I'm not saying being trans gives you a free pass. If that person was an asshole they were an asshole. Some people get upset every time someone spells their name wrong. Though maybe understandable you shouldn't be an asshole about that. Just like being misgendered. If someone calls you the wrong pronoun you can ask them nicely to correct that. If they keep using the wrong pronouns just to spite you that's certainly a reason to get mad.

And, yes, I do think you have a moral obligation to respect someone's pronouns even when they're not visible. If you tell me your name is Walter I don't start calling you Thomas just because you don't look like a Walter.

Specialist doctors are a different thing. They treat your body. A gynecologist's job is to treat the biologically female reproductive system. They're not specialized in p**ises so why would they treat a person with a p**is? I get that that's a very sensitive topic for a lot of trans people but you need to accept that. Any other business definitely can deny service to anyone they please but I don't think they should. If a man wants to get his bikini region waxed you wouldn't complain about him having a p**is and balls... Why does it matter if a woman has them? And "because my religion" has always been a poor excuse to me. But then again I don't understand any business that only caters to one sex/gender anyway, unless it is medically necessary to make that distinction.

As I've said above, no group is exempt from containing assholes. Yes, some trans people overreact, some are racist, some voted for Trump... But that still doesn't give anyone the right to discriminate all trans people or even just them for being trans (passing or not). You can hate them for being racist and call them out on their bullshit, but you can do that without misgendering them on purpose. You shouldn't take away someone's basic rights because they behave badly.

I think gender identity and being an asshole ARE related if the trans person is using their trans status as a free pass to be an asshole to others, ESPECIALLY if they're not respecting people's sexual boundaries or being pervy/predatory. The pronouns have to be earned.

"And, yes, I do think you have a moral obligation to respect someone's pronouns even when they're not visible. If you tell me your name is Walter I don't start calling you Thomas just because you don't look like a Walter."

There are no fixed characteristics associated with the name Walter (other than that it's a male name). There ARE fixed characteristics associated with gender pronouns.

What if someone went by an absurdly-long and/or absurdly-unpronounceable name and demanded that everyone use that name at all times, even when they were not physically present? That's probably not reasonable. What if someone demanded that everyone call them an overtly offensive name? I probably wouldn't respect someone wishes to be called StraightWhiteMaleSlayer.

What if some people wanted to call someone by a private nickname/codename for whatever reason when that person wasn't present? If the person is never around when it's used and never hears of the nickname, how is that immoral?

I've had teachers over the years who've gotten married or divorced, and thus currently have a last name that is different from the one I knew them by. I would probably call them by their old last name when discussing them with someone who knew them by that name as well. How is that immoral?

I think it would be cool to start my own country. If a biological male, such as my former coworker, can get everyone to call them a 'she' despite not presenting as a 'she' in any way; why can't I identify as a more abstract title - such as a monarch, and demand everyone call me by royal styles? If it doesn't matter that a trans individual hasn't begun their transition, then why does it matter that I don't yet have any sovereign territory or subjects to govern? (And foreigners are generally expected to respect a monarch's titles even though they are not subject to that monarch's rule.)

As Sargon of Akkad discusses, the only reasons you'd use a person's preferred pronouns in their absence would be to be politically correct and/or to not offend that person if they found out about the conversation. I don't care about either with regards to my former coworker. There's no way that individual would find out I'm 'misgendering' them.

If someone is using the fact they were born in the US as an excuse to be an asshole to people who look like they weren't is being born in the US the problem?

Yes, there are. I have certainly heard the phrase, "you're not old enough to be a Walter."

Yet, online we just accept everyone's self chosen username. We might abbreviate it out of sheer laziness but if someone named themselves StraightWhiteMaleSlayer that would be the only way to refer to them.

If thy highness Prince Robert wants me to call them by their proper title, thy majesty's wish be my command.

Suppose someone with a PhD demanded that everyone always respect them by that title, even when not in their presence, but they used that title to be arrogant and snobby to everyone. It isn't the fact that they have a PhD that's the problem, but I may very well not respect their wishes to be addressed by that title if that's how they treat others.

In the case of my former coworker, it is NOT ok to be disrespectful and short with customers for using the wrong-gendered language than what you'd prefer, when you're not even presenting in any way, and they don't know you and don't know your situation.

"Yes, there are. I have certainly heard the phrase, "you're not old enough to be a Walter.""

The words 'he' and 'she' are much more rigid concepts than stereotypes associated with some names. I've never met a white Tyrone, but being black isn't intrinsic to the name Tyrone. On the other hand, appearing to be a woman is an intrinsic implication of the pronoun 'she'.

"Yet, online we just accept everyone's self chosen username."

Because online usernames and the name you use in real life are 2 very different things. The internet gives the cloak of anonymity, and it's ubiquitously expected that people will go by fake usernames that mask their identity. People who don't know you online who you offend can't cause you harm in the way someone in your proximity IRL can cause you harm. Going by an extremely absurd or overtly offensive name IRL is generally not accepted. Respecting someone's wishes to be called Ni**erWhipper, or Adolf Hitler II, or PreschoolGirlF***er could put me in physical danger.

"We might abbreviate it out of sheer laziness but if someone named themselves StraightWhiteMaleSlayer that would be the only way to refer to them."

Yeah, not going to respect someone's wishes to be called that, or any abbreviation of it.

"You shouldn't take away someone's basic rights because they behave badly." How is not being misgendered a basic right?

"Any other business definitely can deny service to anyone they please but I don't think they should. If a man wants to get his bikini region waxed you wouldn't complain about him having a p**is and balls... Why does it matter if a woman has them? And "because my religion" has always been a poor excuse to me. But then again I don't understand any business that only caters to one sex/gender anyway, unless it is medically necessary to make that distinction."

The beauticians in the case of Yaniv only provide their services to women with vulvas. Yaniv sued them and put them out of business because they didn't feel comfortable handling Yaniv's junk, and didn't feel comfortable being alone with Yaniv in Yaniv's home. Some of them refused for religious reasons; I think a woman only wanting to handle the genitals of a man she is intimate with is a perfectly legitimate reason regardless of whether or not it's based in religious beliefs, but are you woke to the point that you would force women to handle a dick and balls against their will? Would you force them to provide in-home services to a creepy weirdo?

If Yaniv so desperately needs a ball waxing, then Yaniv should simply find a waxer who's willing to provide services to people with male genitalia.

Again, do you think it's a good idea to treat all claims of being trans as valid? You don't see how that could be abused? Do you think it's ok for a non-presenting or poorly-passing male who identifies as a woman to use the women's restroom? Do you think someone like Harvey Weinstein should be moved to a women's prison if he started going by she/her?

To me it is a basic right to be respected for who you are. But apparently it is not as important to some people.

As long as they specify that they only service women with vulvas there is no way to sue them for denying service to trans women. I, personally, don't understand what problem you could have with other people's genitals, especially in a job where you are constantly encountering them, but if you do for whatever reason just specify it on the door and people know what they're getting into.

I don't think people will abuse it nearly as much as some seem to think... I also think there shouldn't be any gender specific restrooms in the first place, but whatever. And again, people who would claim to be another gender to creep on people in the bathroom are already willing to creep on people in the bathroom and are breaking the law regardless of what gender they are. And Harvey Weinstein will not want to be transferred to a women's prison. He already has to be protected from other male inmates because what he did is considered to be the most despicable of crimes even in prison and there are convicted murderers in there with him who have nothing left to lose. In a women's prison he would either be in solitary constantly or get torn apart in 5 seconds flat.

"To me it is a basic right to be respected for who you are. But apparently it is not as important to some people."

What about Tumblr genders or "MOGAI"? I would not respect anyone who believes in that mental diarrhea, and I would regard them the same as I do flat-Earthers, young-Earth creationists, and Scientologists. Do you think it's a fundamental right to have your imaginary gender respected?

"I don't think people will abuse it nearly as much as some seem to think..."

I DO think there are many people who claim to be trans for attention: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLUt0pCwNxY, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpFlfq3Hadw.
I agree with Blaire White that you need to have gender dysphoria in order to be trans. I believe anyone who has not been formally diagnosed with gender dysphoria should not be treated as valid. I also agree with Ray Blanchard's dichotomy of transwomen - some people who claim to be transwomen are actually straight men who are sexually aroused by the image of themselves as women (autogynephiles). I cannot accept that some old dad who comes home and suddenly feels he's a woman is just as trans as a completely-passing transgender girl who's been overtly girly from the time she was in diapers. When I had to call my completely-non-presenting coworker 'she', I felt like I was disrespecting transwomen who are completely passing and have gone through considerable effort to do so. The pronouns have to be earned.

"I also think there shouldn't be any gender specific restrooms in the first place, but whatever."

I absolutely disagree. As someone with Crohn's disease, I do NOT want any women or girls in my proximity when I'm doing my business. And no teenage boy would want girls in his proximity when taking a dump. And obviously women don't want guys leering at them when in the bathroom.

Perhaps Harvey Weinstein is too extreme and infamous of a case, but in prisons there is absolutely a disproportionate number of male inmates claiming to be trans in comparison to the general population. Buck Angel has talked about this. Male inmates who claim to come out as trans in prison should under no circumstances be moved to a women's prison. Any transwomen who are convicted of violent crimes should be chemically castrated if they are to be incarcerated in a women's prison.

being trans doesn't excuse you from being bad. however you should respect someone's pronouns. how would you feel if you were transgender

If I were trans, I would do my best to present as the gender I identify as, and take the proper steps to medically transition BEFORE demanding everyone call me by my preferred pronouns.

Like I said i'm non binary

You sounded pretty sexist in that last paragraph.
you're in our world now. Prepare for arguements instead of a bunch of people with heads just as hollow as your's to mindlessly agree with you. If you try your best to use the correct pronouns and fail you are not trying enough. In one meme you made about that person you also said that they were nonbinary. Some nonbinary people have facial hair. I personally don't but I respect other nonbinary people who do. And btw when using memes to insult me note that I look like sailor mercury.

The former coworker tacked on 'non-binary' a couple months ago. This person demanded that we use 'she/her' when working with us, and would get agitated when being misgendered by customers. I don't know what pronouns this person uses now and I really don't give a f***. I don't care if I misgender someone who made rapey comments about me.

Were you born on the highway? That is where most accidents happen.

I'm happy you downvoted it

What the hell are you talking about? I never agreed to any "peace treaty" with the LGBTQ stream. I never post any memes on this stream.

We signed a peace treaty with the clean_christian_memes stream

I don’t post in that stream

what I meant is that after one problem is resolved another pops up