Lockdown Reality

I don't think you understand what's really going on

At least there's someone who sees the stupidity about the statement above. The many upvotes and compliments above were creeping the hell out of me! Now I think knocking sense into them is as interesting as talking to a rock, but we gotta try at least, right?

WRONG! The lockdown was caused by humans who were afraid of covid-19, not by covid-19 itself! A virus cannot lockdown the world. They never could and they'll never be able to. That seems like nitpicking, but let's elaborate a little and then you see that it's not.

And I think YOU don't understand the point of this meme,a actually, because it's true.
All the virus itself could cause is sick people and death. The lockdown causes the worst economical crisis since WWII, a lot of home violence, suicides, and also deaths due to medical treatment non-corona-related-but-not-any-less-lethal are now delayed or not even given at all. Your reaction ignores all those facts, and I actually only named the tip of the iceberg of what the lockdown could cause in the best case scenario... And what the virus itself can cause is already named.... So yeah, the lockdown causes more trouble than the virus itself. THAT was the point of the meme, the very point you try to avoid.

It clearly shows that looking further than things and not ignoring other MORE VITAL facts you can easily come to the wrong conclusions. And we are now facing the two issues. COVID-19 itself can cause death and permanent health issues, the lockdown causes death, permanent health issues, a big economic crisis, and much much more, enough to fill books with that would have at least 4x more pages than the Bible, old and new testament together.

Oh well!

Well. I appreciate the energy and emotion of your reply, but all I meant was that the lockdown resulted logically from the presence of the virus in the world. As far as I can see, it was not a consequence of fear, although we see that attribution a lot in people's posts. It was seemingly the most prudent action in an attempt to slow the spread of the virus while an optimal medical response could be prepared. Lockdown could have been a very short-term tactic if it had been deployed early and properly, which it largely was not. But to suggest that not locking down would have been a better option is to imply that an exponentially rapid spread would somehow be better. No one is ignoring the consequences of lockdown, which are awful, but they are largely due to the failure of many people to prepare for medical and financial crises. You are asking the people who WERE prepared for such a crisis to shoulder the burden of health risk by allowing the people who were not to spread the virus and endanger everyone. Do you have a better option in mind?

If a lockdown made sense at all, it would indeed only have been so if it was applied sooner... that possibility is quite real.... This lockdown caused me a lot to use the Dutch proverb "Als het kalf verdronken is dempt men de put" (lit. When the calf has drowned will fill the well... Meaning that people only act when it's already too late). The problem with Covid-19 is that it's relatively harmless, and sounds illogical, but I can't help it, that's the way it is... Only a few actually face death or permanent health damage, and however since the people who do not notice anything at all, are still contageous, we got a problem, and that is why people decided to a lockdown, however, this was like fighting a war while you don't know where your enemy is, or what your enemy is planning. Fighting such a war makes you meet your demise by default. Also a lot of tragic consequences of the lockdown have been foreseen, but nobody listened, so now we harvest what we sowed.

Fact is that world-wide pandemics like these never happened before, but we all know it had to happen someday, given how easily we travel the world these days, and techno-freaks think this will only expand in the future. And if we colonize Mars then even interplanetairy pandemics become possible and if we lockdown then the consequences will be even more severe. The problem is that the world never considered all this before. I cannot give a direct solution right away, but that is because I don't have access to all data and knowledge I need to do that. Those who have that access never even made the slightest consideration this could happen. The first thing to do once a vaccine is there to solve the COVID-19 issue, is give it a proper thought how viruses like these are combatted in the future. A world lockdown only makes matters worse, so we know now that is not an option. And if we responded sooner when COVID-19 was only a "Chinese issue" it's very well possible a world pandemic never came to be.

One thing is certain:, the lockdown did neither solve or prevent problems. It only replaced them with more severe problems, and where COVID-19 could have been solved within one year, the damage the lockdown caused could echo the rest of this decade and is now even threatening the future of an entire generation. Replacing one problem with a bigger problem is not a solution. Therefore medics, politicians, economic experts, civil experts will have to stick their heads together and discuss all things. Not easy!

But when the virus kills I don't know 10 million, 100 million? Nobody knows what the exact figures would be but at a point people would be afraid to be around others.
Look at the so-called Spanish flu of 1918. It shut down the nations for a while because medical science had no idea how to deal with it.
We have learned from SARS and MERS. South Korea knew the lessons from those well and have had the swiftest response with a very low number of Covid-19 cases.

We locked down because history taught us that it's worse when you don't.

And South-Korea also was the first country where the virus came back.... With a vengeance. A letdown in quarantines is that nobody builds up resistance against the virus and that is the only thing that can combat a virus (FACT!) We already know that Corona is here to stay, it will never leave, so you can do the South-Korean thing as much as you want, but all you get back for that is that you'll have to lockdown completely every two months or so. All all in all the South-Korean measure caused the opposite of what you want. What is true though, and there Korea had a few successes is that Korea was also more keen on checking for the virus. Quaritining when you don't know where the virus is, is pointless. It's like fighting a war with no clue at all where the enemy is, guaranteeing your demise.

And the Spanish Flu came in the middle of WWI, and that alone made things impossible to act upon properly. As we are not in a World War situation now it's hard to compare, but I give you another fact related to the to world wars. WWII came for a large part due to the worst economical crisis the world has ever seen. A crisis that is close to match that one is one its way, and possibly even worse than that one. Yes, it is possible WWIII can start as a result to that lockdown as a result. Of course, this is only a remote possibility, but bad economical situations have quite often been reasons for war, so WWIII can be a worst case scenario result, and then even more people will die. Now this is the ultimate doom-scenario, not too likely to happen, but one we may not rule out either. 99% of WWIII stories have been proven bullshit, but this particular one is quite real, even when the chance is low.

Economical crises alone will also threaten lives, with or without WWIII. Most of the world have health care systems in which tax money is involved, and those systems are always the first to meet budget cuts. Yes, that also threatens human life. Also the lockdown has also proven an increase of violence in home situations. A lot of murders over time have been caused by such situations, and so the lockdown again, threatens human life. The list of the lockdown results with terrible and even lethal results is endless. That altogether, especially since many deaths in the future years may be direct consequence of this lockdown, will very likely outrank the top number of deaths the virus itself could cause by far. To see this, one must only be able and be willing to think ahead.

You forgot about vaccines. We're trying to keep the rates down until one is developed.

Are there any vaccines right now? Nope! They are still being developed, and that takes time. The lockdowns will now particially or completely until the vaccine is there and works. Vaccines will only solve the issue COVID-19 causes... That is it will prevent new infections (those already infected are not saved by a vaccine). A vaccine will however not solve the economic damage caused by the lockdown. It will not saved people facing death now because their medical treatment for other diseases was irresponsibly delayed. It will not end the increase of suicides as result of the lockdown damage. It will not revive big multinationals who met their demise due to the lockdown, and therefore also will not help people who lost their jobs and income thanks to this. It will not cure the damage caused to people mentally who got crazy in the lockdown. People most mentally hurt were... tadaa... the elderly people we wanted to protect, since especially those with Altzheimer have suffered dearly, with damage beyond repair. All the vaccine does is prevent the virus itself from making new victims... The damage the lockdown caused.... there is no vaccine against that. So why did you bring that vaccine up?

I've studied microbiology... I know what a vaccine is and what it's supposed to do and how a vaccine works. And therefore I know a vaccine will not cure COVID-19 (that's not even its function). It can only prevent new infections which should make the entire option for a lockdown obsolete, however, here's another question. How long will it take until the whole world's been vaccinated? Vaccines are meant to build group immunity and that must be above 90% in order to be fully effective.... The day the vaccine is available is not the day the lockdown fully ends at last, and the longer the lockdown lasts, either fully or in half form, the more problems it will cause... A part of group immunity however is already caused by COVID-19 itself... that is... without a lockdown... And to understand that you must know what a virus is and what a vaccine does and how your body responds to a virus in general. There a lot more to that alone than you think.

South Korea stands at 280 deaths. Where are you even getting this?

Numbers don't tell truths.... They went into lockdown again when the virus came back immediately. See... ignoring vital facts again.... I and told you before, the number deaths alone is only a part of the problem...

Look up a graph. After the initial spike it's flat. You either take the figures or believe in unfounded conspiracies.

That shows that "unfounded conspiracies" is your definition of "science"....
I've been trained to become a microbiologist myself... I never finished that training, that's true, but that does not mean I don't know enough to draw my own conclusions. The graph shown is nothing more but a nummeric representation. Numbers alone are useless, and thus that graph which is only an easier way to interpret the numbers is useless as well. All numbers contain a story, and contra-facts, and not to mention other numbers. But then again, you technically have been ignoring a lot of the most vital facts as long as you mixed yourself in this discussion, and you've actually ignored all content of the comment your replied to, so how could you possibly debunk that from the start.

History didn't teach us anything, since it's the first time in human history something like this happens on this scale. And what we learn is that it's worse when you do.... You can only come to the conclusion that it's worse when you don't if you ignore a high crap-load of facts and only acknowledge the facts that are directly counting the virus itself.

And I can give you another fact. Thanks to globalisation, we being able to travel the world in less than a week, and using that fact to the fullest and in the near future this only becoming easier, this will be the first, but not be the last world-wide outbreak, and they will very likely be more frequent as time goes on as well. If we lockdown everything this happens, the bankruptcy of the world economy will be fact. You can only hope you won't live long enough to see that, trust me on that one. If you've seen the horrors of the crisis that led to WWII you've not even see what that scenario can bring.... No virus can top that, no matter how lethal that virus is....

Think further than only the virus.... That's what you refuse to do, and thanks to that you come to the illusion that not locking down will lead us worse off.... But that is like playing chess without thinking multiple turns ahead. When you have a noob-opponent (equivalent to a minor issue) you may then still win, when you are facing a grand master (equivalent to problems as big as covid-19) you will lose... guaranteed!

You focus on 2% of the facts.... There's 98% of the facts ignored.... Only 100% of the facts form the truth... And that is a cold hard fact which nobody can deny.... Although many people (including yourself) try.

Your proposed solution of just letting it run it's course kills the economy anyway. You're being condescending so I'm not continuing this. If you want to count it as a win go right ahead.

It's more than just the economy. The economy is only one of the many issues this brings. And now I'm not condescending, but you refuse to face the vital facts and only want to concentrate yourself on the facts the virus itself brings forth, however in order to fully understand a problem you must analyze all facts (and that is lesson #1 in professional lessons about problem solving, actually). And no, I'd only have won if you'd been willing to face the problem with all the facts and not merely 2% of the facts (if not less). You think in black-white... No lockdown virus kills, lockdown virus doesn't kill, thus problem solved.... I only wish it were that simple, but when you broaden your mind and get to analyze all issues and all consequences of either a lockdown or no lockdown, only then can you see what the problem truly is.... Now you are in a majority, but that proves the majority is not always right (the occassions in which the majority is wrong outrank being right by far of the entire course of human history... Thinking in a broad sense, and not limiting yourself to one part of the problem alone, and especially one as big as this. Then it's only natural a lot of facts come to play. More than you can imagine... Even more than I can imagine or anyone can imagine. That doesn't change the fact that all these facts are still vital. If you show at willingness to know all these facts you can however come to the global picture, and then you'll see what the lockdown is doing. The economic damage alone is estimated to be only topped by the pre-WWII crisis, and it's possibly higher as a lot of numbers are not yet present and some things cannot even be presented in numbers. And the economy is just one facet of the problem as a whole... If you take that alone in mind you can already see that the lockdown caused more damage than it prevented.

I really don't want to be rude but you're making assumptions that nobody ever considered ramifications. Every political decision rests on weighing outcomes. The conclusion was from the start that the science indicates mass sickness and death perhaps enough to kill 1 in 10 individuals, or perhaps 2 in 100. Weigh that against the problems lockdown causes and it's an easy decision.

Please stop acting like you're the only person who ever considered the big picture. Your arguments show you're leaving out a very big chunk of that larger view.

Actually YOUR answers show that YOU do what you accuse me of. You think only in the deaths the virus itself brings. I count those and many other deaths and issues as well. And since the meme has already 124 upvotes (my own included) it's clear I am not the only one who thought ahead... I may be the only one who speaks and makes an attempt to talk some sense in you, knowing that doing so is as interesting as talking to a rock. But that your narrow-minded is not my problem, so don't try to make it mine. That is weak, pathetic and cowardice, and I have no respect for people lecturing me about issues they have themselves and which I do not have. You don't like to be proven wrong, or to be pointed to the fact that this issue is too big to phantom and that you must think about all consequences, as well of the virus as of the lockdown and then make up the balance... If you ignore all lockdown issues (which you clearly do, or at least most of them) then you must come to the conclusion that the lockdown is causing more damage than the virus ever could.

Now people who consider bigger pictures have always been rare and are rarely even taken seriously. It's too hard to most of us to think ahead and think to more than just one thing. That's a weakness of most humans. It's the main reason the world's such a rotten place... unfortunately.

That YOU (not me) are leaving out the biggest chunk (chunks actually! Plural, which makes it worse) of the larger view is the very core of every message I posted so far in this entire debate, so it's quite a nerve that you dare to accuse me of that. And I also have no respect for people why try to save their own ass like that. (and don't say that means I don't respect myself, as that would be even more pathetic). Just accept you've been a bit narrow-minded, or pull back, but don't ever accuse others of your own faults when they are not the ones who make your own faults.

Really? Has it come to this?

Typical, whenever trolls know they've been exposed because they cannot beat clever argumentation, that come up with the "SpongeBob mocking template". Of course, SpongeBob is beyond any level stupidity himself, so maybe that template confirms the image they have of themselves.... If they only had the intelligence to acknowledge that it only confirms their own intelligence (or lack thereof) and doesn't make a point at all... Oh, maybe I overestimated you.... Sorry about that.

Homework for you: Look up Gish Gallop. You've been doing it.
The whole while projecting and being rudely insulting. And I knew you would declare some hollow victory. You're welcome to it.

I didn't even declare victory. And I actually said that before. I even denied it when you said I had won. I didn't reach my goal.... My goal was to make you see the error in your ways, which you desperately try not to do. But as long as you don't I failed. So once again you accuse me of things I did not do all in a desperate attempt to hide your own stupidity. That's the easy way to avoid truths.... Just by throwing in insults to the one who tells them, but that doesn't change them. That only marks your own shortcomings. But then again, you know that when you start to act INTELLIGENT I also succeeded in my endeavor, and it's clear by now that is your biggest nightmare.

This is not about winning or losing. Only a fool thinks in winning or losing. A wise man thinks in facts and all the facts and seeking the truth and nothing but the WHOLE truth and trying to make people accept that. A shame people will think they are trying to win something. I've nothing to gain by "winning"... I have something to gain by people acting in an INTELLIGENT manner. Something you refuse to do, by thinking this is a game or something. I already thought I overestimated your intelligence, but it appears you are even more foolish than your SpongeBob meme implied... Impressive... Unfortunately you only prove yourself a fool that way, and I can only hope other people reading that will be smart enough to start thinking for real.

Yup, I already said you were a black-white thinker.... And now you also prove yourself to be a fool. I have nothing to win and nothing to lose... I guess you have... Oh well... Come up with another stupid remark... Make my day... In the meantime I'm going back to my coding work and have a cup of coffee.

You didn't look up Gish Gallop did you? You see research leads to facts, facts lead to understanding. Understanding leads to being able to make a coherent argument. But given you cannot be bothered to do even a modicum of research I can't help you.

I don't have time to look up things a fool brings up. And now you make the implication I didn't do research.... Quite odd as the subject is something I've studied in, which I mentioned before. It may have escaped your notice, but I am WORKING at this very moment.

Also with your implication that I don't research, you are once again accusing me of something you did yourself, in your desperation not to accept the facts the way they are. I have clearly more understanding of the topic at hand than you ever had, but since you refuse to accept the wisdom and knowledge my RESEARCH and EXPERIENCE brought me, you try one excuse after another to blame me for your own mistakes. You did it before, and you're doing it again. Don't meddle in things you are not willing to understand. I've learned my lessons of life the hard way, and I also did my research on many topics, and this is one I've even been educated in specifically, which makes your issue worse.

You can't help me anyway. Not until you accept that you've been a fool all this time and accept help yourself. I only accept help from people who KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING.... You refuse help from people who know what they are doing, and seek it in unrelated topics and in your own simplicity.... A common mistake, but don't blame others for that.... I know my flaws, and I think they are beyond your understanding and so far, you didn't manage to mention any of them...

i was going to comment that

That's the perfect response!

tnx! ( :

You read my mind!

Indeed.... But only if you use it fully!

Yup, it perfectly ignores the most vital facts about this entire crisis....

That globally we're approaching half a million deaths? Still climbing and nobody knows where it ends? The meme represents problems caused by Covid-19 as a triviality. Doesn't strike me that OP knows what they're talking about unless they're a denier.
Let's just say the death rate would have been just double if no measures taken which is being very conservative. It could be 10 times that. But for the sake of argument do you think the economies of the World would roll full steam with 1 million and counting deaths from a contagious disease?
Lockdown was imposed or it would have been self-imposed by people trying to avoid the rolling death. It was inevitable and the places which did it earlier and more decisively have a smaller load on their health systems.

You limit yourself to the virus itself.... I would very likely be dead now if covid-19 came earlier... And NOT thanks to the virus itself, but because of the lockdown. Why? Because I wouldn't have undergone an operation then that very likely saved my life. And I am one out of many. The brother of somebody I know is diagnosed with cancer and very likely beyond hope because the lockdown made that the diagnoses came very likely too late for him. And those numbers are not made up yet, but they will very likely outrank the death Covid-19 is causing now, accompanied with the biggest economic crisis since WWII and a disruption to society that the world has never seen and criminals also jumped into the lockdown to exploit the possibilities it gives to them. It's funny you name the many deaths covid-19 can cause, but the world moves on many other kinds of deaths that could be prevented if we did not go into lockdown are very systematically ignored..... You must look further than the virus itself. The lockdown was NOT inevitable. It was the result of thinking rashly and having the mind on one point only without realizing what the consequences will be if you can cause with that. It's simply that humans appear to miss the ability to properly think things trough. And the biggest lesson COVID-19 has taught us (which you like to ignore, but humans have knack for ignoring the most important lessons of history, so why would COVID-19 be any different?) is that locking down the world is never the solution to pandemics, as the result of that is bigger than the pandemic itself can cause. What can be done then to prevent pandemics? That is the big question the experts may truly think about, as COVID-19 is not gonna be the last virus that strikes the entire world, and if another pandemic breaks out in less than 5 years and we respond with a lockdown again, the disasters of the lockdown will be unmeasurable.

No lockdown is only half million deaths. With lockdown we have half a million deaths, economic chaos, politcal chaos, a broken society, and on the longer run, some kids now couldn't do exams ruining their careers for the future, and all that is just the tip of the iceberg. If you ignore all that and pretend that doesn't exist, then it's logical you believe in that lockdown. If you do see the entire picture, then you come to a much greater horror scenario that you are either unable or unwilling to see. But that's your fault, not mine. Think! Use your common sense!

Your youth will excuse a lot of your commentary here. You aren't the only person with a mind and logic. What seems obvious to you is not obvious to everyone, and people with more experience at deep analysis know that the best course of action in a broad crisis is seldom a simple one. The sharpest young people that I have admired as my career rolled out were those who observed situations and the thinking and tactics of others before chiming in with emotion-fueled certainty. A cool head is what's needed. Aim for that.

So diplomatic. You must be a saint with all that patience.

LOL ( :

Re: You know who.

I'm sorry to everybody everywhere that I didn't stop feeding this one ages ago. Sorry!

Oh I disagree there. He has a good mind and he cares. He has offered many good comments imo

I admire the hell out of you.

you sound just like the guy in my mirror!

LOL

I'm sensitive to your situation. I'm aware lockdown affects everybody and has it's own body count.

Covid-19 has an R Not estimated between 2 and 6.6

It's a fast spreader wherever it falls within that range. You either believe the science or you don't.

There is plenty of evidence from the CDC that at minimum our health care system would be overwhelmed if we hadn't flattened the curve.

Unfettered this thing would have looked like 1918 all over again.

Sorry for your situation. It's hard for many people.

true

Politics stream? Good point though

I wouldn't deem this political. Just some scientific facts.