Do you believe He is God? Or just a misunderstood prophet, or perhaps you believe he was just an ordinary man

I don't believe he actually existed, but the mythical character and his story have a lot of valuable wisdom.

Interesting. I don't think there is any historian that denies that Jesus really existed as a person who lived in Palestine in the first century (AD or BCE, whichever way you look at it even history uses His birth as a marker to tell time) have you come to the conclusion yourself he was only a mythical character like loch ness monster or bigfoot? Or is it something you've been told. Thanks for commenting

I came to that conclusion after reading some analysis of Josephus, contradictions in the gospels, and recent personal observations of how easily humans believe falsehoods about even recent history.

I'm not saying that I'm completely convinced the gospels have absolutely no historical basis, but I see no reason to take them even close to literally.

Fun fact: Barabbas? That's actually bar Abba in the original Hebrew. His first name was Y'eshua. Yes, Y'eshua bar Abba was his actual name. Bar Abba means Son of Man. Y'eshua translates into Joshua for us. He was arrested and tried for the crime of sedition.

You know who else was arrested, tried, convicted, and sentenced for the crime of sedition at the exact same time? Jesus. Yes, Jesus, Son of Man. Jesus is a variation of Joshua. Same name, same crime, same judge. Oh, but 'only one' of them was pardoned *wink*

I stand corrected.
Encountered it a few months ago, haven't gone back.

Yeshua, or Jesus was actually a very common name in that time period so I'm not surprised. So you acknowledge that a Jesus who was crucified did exist?

Um, READ what I said.
Two men
Same name
Same crime
Same sentence
But one was released because he was more popular than the crowd's own king that he never even was?

I acknowledge that the story says Y'eshau bar Abba was NOT hung.

I'm not even bringing up the story that Jesus not being hung was the original tale, that him being spared was the miracle, since I've not found enough out about that, although that was a cpl of years ago when I looked, before I heard of the Barabbas identical with Jesus thing (which was just a few months ago).

Please do link if you find out more, it's the first I've heard of it but likely just another athiest trying to disprove Jesus. Which I never understood why he would be an issue for them if they say God doesn't exist why would they be bothered by a man who claimed to be God?

Oh, don't do that. Save the "ist" labeling for those yearning to be in a club.

ASSIGNMENTS:

Look up Barabbas's real name.

Look up Jesus claiming he was God. (HINT: The closest was when under interrogation, he said, "It is you that had said it" via the question).

Look up Messiah and why Jesus was not even that.

Oh I wasn't labeling you, I think anyone claiming God doesn't exist (usually when times are good, the money is flowing and all is right with world, then turns around and blames the before nonexistent god for all the world's ills, isn't really an athiest)

Right professor, I will dutifully note down your assignments and report my findings on the next occasion I am able. Perhaps when it's not the wee hours of the morning and I'm seriously sleep deprived. Thanks for the tips. I shall return.

You seem to be confusing me with someone else. Why on Earth why I blame the WORLD'S problems on the tribal God of a little dot of a two millenia extinct nation?
I wouldn't even blame them on Ahura Mazda, and HE was a bigger God and was here before. In fact, He's the template, the inspiration, the reason Jews went monotheistic.

Incidentally, Mithra, also Zoroastrian and a sect popular in Rome - you guessed it - 2000 years ago, also provided the template, the inspiration, the reason Jesus was, um, 'discovered' in Rome. Ooops, I mean Judea *wink*

Google is your friend.

Don't believe everything you read on the internet.

-Logics

And here we see our responsible and never sarcastic mother, Kate

"Sometimes I wonder why people still use old English Bibles. Sure, it has aesthetic, but the functionality is wack."

It does sound dandy, but is innacurate as heel. But then we live in a world where England has been turned into the pinnacle, so that's part of it. Like all those movies about ancient Romans and Greeks with English accents. What a hoot.

btw, there's a little island in Chesapeake Bay where the residents are known as Hoigh Toidies [sic?] (High Tiders), a fishing community going back centuries. They have a very thick accent, and their entire English is limited to the words used in King James Version, thus much more limited in number of words.

Oh, I'm serious, I fully intend to fulfill my assignments being the studious memer that I am. But not at 1am. I need my sleep. Ttyl, Son. Go get em make your mamma proud. ;)

Okay, mamma!

Sometimes I wonder why people still use old English Bibles. Sure, it has aesthetic, but the functionality is wack.

Oh I see

There is no real historian that has ever cited any info vouching for his existence nor claims he existed.

So Josephus and Tacitus aren't real historians in your book? There are also several mentions of Jesus by Roman emperors mostly out of disdain for the large following he had. There's not an abundance of literature in history about Jesus simply because from a historic and social standpoint he didn't really accomplish anything noteworthy like discover a new land, accumulate wealth, lead an army, govern a nation, start Facebook, lol. So really he is like 99%of the earth's population that won't have an entire book written about them (i'm guessing you don't accept the Bible as having any historical accuracy in it, amarite?)

The account in Josephus seems like a later insertion to me.

Problem is, these people talking about the followers of Jesus a CENTURY after really does little to prove anything other than there was a cult. One, which, btw, very much resembled the Cult of Mithras, just as Jesus resembled Mithra, as he had many other "Pagan" Gods.

There is ZERO historical evidence Jesus existed.

Oh, the Bible is very accurate, like David slaying Goliath and cutting his head off only to be approaching Goliath's already slain-by-someone-else's body to cut his head off a few lines later.

The contradications between the four Gospels (also written a century later) speak for themselves, and that's ignoring the books that got LEFT out.

Archeologists have unearthed many artifacts which support details written in the bible and they're continually finding support for the gospel narratives. And yes, if you ask 4 different people to give an account of something they heard or saw you're not going to get 4 carbon copy stories.

What's wrong with documents written within a CENTURY? Why would Romans who hated Jesus and his followers mention him if he was imaginary?

The Torah is one thing - and full of holes - but having stories going over a long period, some are bound to have some substance.
Some were also borrowed from other cultures, so that might be used to establish some validity (though erroneously if not backed by substance). Ironically, Christians dismiss those as merely pagan, which simply serves to render their beliefs even flimsier. That Noah was real but Gilgamish is pagan myth when Noah is based on Gilgamish basically, well, sinks that boat.
- sorry, I hadda.

The Gospels have zero evidence to them. Even some things, like the alleged custom of Romans releasing a prisoner to honor Passover have no foundation, and defies logic.

Constantine's use of Jesus for political purposes is known. It's not a rumor, not alleged, not revisionist, it is a fact that he did so to reinvigorate a decaying Rome. Plus he took a renegade cult and co-oped it, retroffiting it to serve his purposes. Turning their God into Sol Invictus was no big deal. Neither God, as we know, did anything to protest.

Incidentally, it is the fulfillment of Scripture (chicken & egg enters here tho) where Son of Jackal seated in Rome shall steal the religion of THE Chosen (Judeans) and call it their own (ROMAN Catholicism), but not before corrupting it beyond recognition, as they had done. Christianity is a Roman (and Greek and Iranian) Paganized corruption of Judaism. That's why it's not Jewish and Jews aren't Christians and Christians aren't Jews.

I watched a documentary of Constantine and Christianity and I saw how badly he f**ked up the message

Intentionally, of course. It was a growing religion, so instead of fighting it, he decided to utilize it to help revive Roman spirit, but warping it to suit his own purposes.

Weren't the gospels written by different people in different places in different times?
There's like a few year's gap between some and they were all meant for different audiences.

Yeah, some were for the Jews and some were for the Romans etc.

He's an apostle, right? He was busy spreading the Gospel by word before he got caught, survived, and was exiled. In his exile he wrote it down.

I think, I dunno

What's wrong with documents written after a CENTURY is that none of the authors were actual witnesses. That makes accuracy not necessarily applicable and validity not necessarily a thing.

So basically any history book written is unacceptable unless the author witnessed the events with their own eyes? That would eliminate quite alot of literature.

Now that you say it, that's true. Lots of history was written centuRIES after it happened.
Heck, the history of primal cavemen shouldn't be valid in this case.

Sorry 2 of them were apostles. John and Matthew were companions of Jesus. Mark and Luke were companions of apostles who followed Jesus and so based their gospel on what they were told.

Oh yeah I remember reading in my Bible class about Matthew being on of the apostles

Yet he denies the actual eyewitness accounts, at least 3 of the gospels were written by the men who saw everything they wrote about.

Wait really
I only knew that John saw it
I thought the others got it from stories

No wait that was only Luke?

I definitely believe he existed and was probably quite a remarkable personality. I don't think he meant to create a new religion or even a new branch of judaism. His friends and followers just used him as their central figure and main inspiration after he died and created a lot more myth around him than he probably ever wanted. And I think if he could see what's become of his legacy he would truly be horrified by it. I do not believe he actually came back to life, I think that started as a metaphor his followers used, as in "he lives on through us", and that among other things was later lost when people centuries later decided what should be part of his legacy and what shouldn't.

Thanks Rabid I appreciate your comment! Do you believe in the Bible at all as a reliable account of the life of Christ or do you think the followers of Jesus simply made it all up to support his claim that he was God? I agree that he would be very disappointed by some of the actions of those who claim to follow him. (Like zealots or extreme so called Christians) But if you look at what he preached and how he lived they are not truly imitating anything he stands for.

I do believe that there were reliable accounts of his life's work and his teachings but since even the four main accounts that later did make it into the bible don't line up entirely I don't think we should take any of it without question. Thousands of people have spent their lives searching for the truth behind it all going through accounts of contemporaries and looking for all the texts that didn't make it into the bible... It's definitely a very difficult undertaking to distinguish between fact and fiction about two thousand years after it happened and I couldn't care enough to spend my life doing it. I do appreciate the people who have worked on it so far though.

As for the person Jesus himself I do believe he was a pretty good guy and - considering love and forgiveness actually are the things he preached - I would probably have agreed with him on many issues. I'm not sure he himself ever claimed to be the son of god or his incarnation on earth but it was a pretty common thing to say to legitimize your claim for many rulers at the time so I can understand his following adding it to his story even at the time. I honestly don't understand why people need to take everything written in the bible for literal fact and to believe everything in it as historical truth to base their faith on. But then again I never understood the need to believe in any divine powers to justify a moral codex. Like I said, I can agree with a preaching of love and non-violence and forgiveness but that doesn't mean I need to believe in a god or that his literal son on earth said so. Just because I don't believe that god will punish me for my sins after I die doesn't mean I just go around ruthlessly killing and raping people. But me not doing that also doesn't mean a god or religious text needed to tell me how to act.

I believe Jesus is God. He is God's only begotten Son, and the Word from the beginning. He came to die for people's sins as a sacrifice, so that if we accept that we're sinners, believe Jesus died for us, and confess that Jesus is Lord, we shall receive God's salvation from death, hell, and eternal separation from our Creator.

What I've heard is he was a person, why people think he is God I don't know.

Thanks for your comment Trooper! Do you believe in the Bible at all as a reliable source to explain who Jesus is? This is what we'r base our belief in His divinity.

Well, if the Bible explains him and how people believe he was, of course it could be used to tell about him.

To me, Jesus is God, the Messiah come to save us all. Of course, only if we follow the right path in return.
The Bible is real, at least to me.
And... Jesus isn't just a prophet, as some say He is. Has any prophet been risen from the dead? And has any prophet ever claimed to be God Himself and still have the power of God? No! That means, Jesus really is God.

I agree with you. But let me ask you "typing in Octavia Melody" what if he was just a crazy person who really did think he was God and was so influential that he convinced everyone he could perform miracles and he had a body double die on the cross for him so he could pretend to rise from the dead? Huh? Huh? "Typing in Kate" this is a common argument and I have plenty of replies. Just want to hear yours. :)

I watched a movie on this once and it was based on a book... I forgot the title though.
It said that Jesus faking His death and influencing so many people to believe in Him, maybe through mass hypnotism, would be a miracle in itself, because it's so improbable.
Plus, if Jesus really was crazy, how could He come up with so many elaborate and believable plans to trick so many people

There have been wack jobs before claiming to be prophets sent by God and gathering large followings. But the ones who don't drink the coolaide, get wise to the phony, find someone else to follow or just lose interest, usually within a few years, sometimes within a few decades, but 2,000 years? Who follows a fake for that long and risks or lose their lives in the process? And brilliant scientist like Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, all believed in Jesus. They can't be crazy too. Granted there's brilliant scientist who don't believe in Jesus or God even but it doesn't seem that believing in a nonexistent being would help a christian scientist's cause at all. Who would believe anything else they said?

You know, sometimes I wonder
There's a quote from Mark Twain, that says "The best cure for Christianity is reading the Bible." And now that I think about it, there's a lot of things that sound too cruel and make no sense in the Bible... Specifically the Old Testament.
Maybe that's why they created the figure of Yaldabaoth

Yalda who?

Yea, I don't use the Bible really at all to argue for the existence of God. The old testament is to confusing but the prophesies about Jesus and how they align with the gospels is pretty remarkable.

Stop giving me notifications, I can't sleep thanks to you! Lol

Yaldabaoth, god of control, said to be the god of the Old Testament. I can't believe I found this out from a game, lol.

Mhm

Just ignore them and reply to them in the mornin', easy :p

Did you get that From persona 5 ?

Yes

Really? What prophecies are they, because Jesus didn't even fulfill any messianic ones.

Wait are you seriously saying this

Look up what a Messiah is supposed to be and do.
Very simple, a leader who will oust the enemies occupying Judea and lead it into a period of peace and prosperity. That's it. Jesus never liberated Judea, and he was never its king.

Don't get me wrong, sounds like a worthwhile person to learn from, but all this "one day that's not today yet all this wonderful stuff is going to happen" nonsense is just a distraction from the REAL message.

You'll notice all thes people referring to scripture as if that proves who knows what, but they can't even state the scripture themselves, or what it means to them, how it applies to their life. That's because it doesn't. Just empty cheers minus the heart.

Understand what those words mean, the essence. That is what it is to be born again, not a head dunked into the water and a plastic cross made in China on the wall while telling everyone else they're going to hell because they don't go to their Church. These are the wolves in sheeps clothing, the heathens, the ones bearing 666. They do not care about anything but elevating themselves to some sort of pretend godliness. Love is irrlevent to them. Self adulation is what they are about. Damning the rest makes them feel like they have worth.

calm yourself. Have faith my brother. Lead with love this weekend. Please.

Where have I ever damned you to hell? If you have ever felt threatened by me, I'm sorry. It's truly not my intent as I respect you and your beliefs even though we don't agree. Asking for proof to claims as you should know isn't a personal attack.

((This is a reply to your replies to me))

Thank you, Vaga.

I always like to see proof before I can determine what I think is the truth.
Yes, there's always the truth, and the truth is unchangeable. But what we get from the truth - our perception of the truth - is able to be manipulated. For example, let me exchange the word "truth" with "reality", as in this context, both are essentially the same.
All the information we take in from our senses is processed in the brain, but the brain can be tricked.
Heck, you don't need to trick the brain. Simple doublespeak (explained in more detail in thsi video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP07oyFTRXc) is enough to change our perception.
Reality is absolute, our perception of reality isn't. There was one scene in the Matrix that explains this pretty well, actually, but I don't have it right now.

That's why I like concrete proof. Because I want my perception of what is real and true to be as close as possible to the actual reality and truth.

I've yet to hear you speak positively about the Bible and how it applies to your life. So what's the real message Vaga since you who don't even believe Jesus existed are suddenly the expert on what He taught.

Try rereading the very comment you just read.
Use Google Translate if necessary.

Why on earth would you ask me about how Jesus's message applies to me if you claim I do not believe he existed? Would you like to ask me how Santa affected my holiday season? Vishnu? Buddha?
Focus on yourself. Simply ranting and judging others for not being a member of your congregation isn't in his set of instructions for better living.
How about you share what this book applies to YOUR life? I mean, other than quotes so you can damn me to hell which, as you know, merely damns yourself instead.

Oh, and try not lying and bearing false witness, God don't like it.

Don't worry about vaga, you can make up your own mind about Christianity as everyone is free to do. Someone who's evidently bitter about Jesus and his followers hardly seems an authority on what to believe.

If I just listen to what I want to, I'll be no better than some kind of criminal. I have to know the whole truth before I can judge.

Feel free to chat on Slack. There's a good mixture of Christians, non Christians, agnostics and athiests for you to discuss this topic with.

You are on the right track. You already understand more than these false preachers ever will.

The only one who is bitter is you and the rest of the 'saved' crew.

You continue to commit liying and bearing false witness violations.

Typical Vagabond route. 1. Accuse other person of lies, hypocrisy, bearing false witness (although I have yet to see where you think anyone must abide by the 10 commandments, so whos the real hypocrite?) 2. Make a reference to confession or praying Hail Mary's as if the other person is attacking you while engaging in other pious acts like the hypocrite you labeled them to be. (Funny how much you reference Confession and Catholic prayers, maybe you used to be Catholic?)

Please tell me where I've lied or done anything you acuse me of. My post was simply "who is Jesus to you" and since you have posited all these speculations I asked for explanation and proof.

Show me where I'm bitter or lying or bearing false witness anywhere here.

I never claimed to be saved for all I know I'm no closer to heaven than you or anyone here.

But if there's so many things to doubt, it gets harder to believe
I want to get to the bottom of the truth, with real explanations, because people are just throwing knowledge around and I don't know which ones are right

Belief is irrelevent, truth is in the eye of the beholder.

What matters more, exact words and who said them, or the essence of what they say?
Turning words into some end-all-be-all exalted mantra is a form of idolatry and is totally missing the message.
That is what these others do, and it upsets them if you don't join in the chorus, because it validates what they wish to believe, and that is to elevate themselves to the level of God. If there is a Divinity, a Savior, whatever, you think they would need pesky little people to accept them? That is like needing the dust on the ground beneath us to worship us in order for us to be real.

Quite fitting to be discussing this on Good Friday.

Hey Kate what's a Good Friday

The Roman celebration of killing Jesus.

Oh.

Thank your Evangelical friend for reviving this thread for the simple purpose of turning it into a flamewar. In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of course.

Jesus was born of a woman? Good to know.

btw, "Virgin," as you know, was a mistranslation of the Greek for "young woman."

Jesus < Joshua < Yeshua
Jesus of Galillee
Jesus of Nazareth
Jesus son of Joseph
Jesus son of Man
Jesus son of the Father
Jesus son of God
Jesus is God

Jesus had a lot of names.
Jesus, however, was not named Emmanuel.

He was also not a priest, messiah, nor king.

Most of your list is vague stuff that applies to many,
And most was written by Jesus's followers as much as a century after, by Romans, no less. THAT is NOT prophecy.

"And brilliant scientist like Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, all believed in Jesus. They can't be crazy too."

They also believed in slavery and women and children as chattle with no rights.
Plus their fashion sense wouldn't make it out the front door nowadays.

But extremists are normally lied to
And also, most people believe in religions because they could relate to the lessons. However, the Quran has many parallels with the Bible but the Bible was written first.
Also, for other religions like Buddhism, lots of the lessons are similar to Christianity

Correction, not lied to, but manipulated

I heard about the empty tomb discovery

No, I meant that in the Bible, if you claimed to be God then you would lose His blessing because blasphemy. And, still, it would be hard to manipulate so many people to make them believe in you.

There is the Unforgivable Sin. If the Holy Spirit reveals that Jesus is the Savior of the World and you still don't believe. You have committed the Unforgivable Sin. God will never forgive you because you will not ask for forgiveness and your permanently hardened heart. Octavia_Melody, I pray you have not committed this heinous sin.

No, when the Holy Spirit reveals to you that it is true, and you still refuse to believe. You harden your heart and never want to hear about Jesus again

Satan would never say Jesus is the Savior.

The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

John 10:10

Read Revelation

Revelation is Roman, not Hebrew.
Look up "Satan" in the OT for giggles.

That's so awesome. Too bad there is no such spirit being in the Torah, holy or otherwise. Same for this "Unforgivable Sin" nonsense.

There is, however, something about Jesus in the NT saying "Judge not lest you be judged"

That's so awesome. Too bad there is no such spirit being in the Torah, holy or otherwise. Same for this "Unforgivable Sin" nonsense.

Matthew 12:30-32: "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, any sin and blasphemy can be forgiven. But blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

Hmm, I wonder why this nonsense is in THE BIBLE?

Torah. TORAH. T-O-R-A-H. You know, GOD'S Word to HIS CHOSEN - AKA, the Jews.
The NT is Roman Pagan bs.

Oh, and that's the best you can do with Holy the Friendly Ghost?

"Memenade1

Don't believe everything you read on the internet.

-Logics"

Son, lemme refresh your memeory (see what I did there?),
I asked YOU:

"VagabondSouffle 0 ups, <1h

That's so awesome. Too bad there is no such spirit being in the Torah, holy or otherwise. Same for this "Unforgivable Sin" nonsense.

There is, however, something about Jesus in the NT saying "Judge not lest you be judged" "

Ain't talking bout the web, child, talkin bout THE Book.
Now quote your bs (which you didn't because you can't), or zip it.

You are in violation of:

"Thou shalt not lie"
&
"Thou shalt not bear false witness"

Repent.

If you were quoting the Bible, then just say you quoted the Bible. You mislead by saying Google is your friend.

True that man. True that.