A Gospel that Is Not

Alright debate time. Please note im not always on.
From a non calvinist to a calvinist.
I do believe what you said but my question is this. If Christ chooses who is saved how does he love everyone. But since God is a father as the good father he would trybto help all of us. My point is this.
A father has a daughter. The father tells his daughter that she should wait to have sex till she is married. She ignores her father's words and gets pregnant. The boy runs off and leaves her helpless. What should the father do? Please answer this.

Hi Pierre, here are my answers

“I do believe what you said but my question is this. If Christ chooses who is saved how does he love everyone. But since God is a father as the good father he would trybto help all of us.”

God does love everyone, but He does not love all equally. Paul says that He will have mercy on whom He’ll have mercy … that the election and counsel of God shall stand. The whole chapter of Romans 9 tells this in detail.

Now, why doesn’t He save all of us? While this is harsh, and seemingly and utterly unloving, God has no obligation to save any of us. Man from the very beginning have sinned to the point that He had to wipe out all but Noah and his company. And yet, the wickedness remained [the rebellious/sinful nature of man did not go away with the slain but continued with Noah (Genesis 8:21)]. What He had done was an act of magnanimous mercy.

We are all equally guilty as we all have a carnal mind [it’s impossible for us to believe, because we don’t want to (Romans 8:7)], so in His sovereignty He choose individuals to save.

Now. there are different views regarding the non-elect. Some believe that God chose, and left the rest to their own devises (left on their own); but others believe that not only God predestines the elect but also predestines the non-elect to damnation. Of the two, most Calvinists believe in the former, including me. Although the non-elect are not “Drawn” to Jesus ”(John 6:37 & 44), they can still believe, despite their rebellious inclinations.

An example of this is that in Romans 11, the Jews were rejected and the Gentiles accepted; the latter became the elect of God. But while the Jews were unelected, they can still be saved yet through jealousy (11:11). While Romans 8:7 remains true, circumstances can override their rebellious inclinations.

And while they're not actively drawn in, they do have evidences of God through creation (Romans 1:19-20).

"My point is this.
A father has a daughter. The father tells his daughter that she should wait to have sex till she is married. She ignores her father's words and gets pregnant. The boy runs off and leaves her helpless. What should the father do? Please answer this.”

If I were that father, I would help my daughter in any way possible.

Well my point with the father and daughter is this Christ does the for us he helps. But whem we take advantage of this grace he will no longer help us. Not because he chooses but rather we do.
But the bible also does say that He ( Christ) wishes that none should perish. But we know that universalism is wrong. We broke his rules.
Same way the daughter broke the father's. But because she is helpless and is seeking forgiveness and earnestly wants to do right the father helps. But if she takes advantage of this grace. The father does not have to help her, because she is breaking his rules

“Since the understanding of the Gospel requires the Holy Spirit, is that an example of being elect? Because two people can get different understandings from the same passage, but only the one with the understanding from the Holy Spirit truly understands the passage”

I’ll say yes to that question.

“Well my point with the father and daughter is this Christ does the for us he helps. But when we take advantage of this grace he will no longer help us. Not because he chooses but rather we do.”

So if God really does love all, would He not also help the un-Elected? Yes, He already has. He gave both the Elect, and the Un-Elect, evidence of His existence even to know Him in detail (Romans 1:18-24). He has also given them what’s called, "Common Grace", meaning that He gives them things to enjoy like spring rain, the warm sun, and good harvest; as well as to bridle the darkest of human impulses until the Holy Spirit is removed and the Tribulation begins (Matthew 5:45 & 2 Thessalonians 2:7). All these are evidence of God’s existence and love, but the Natural man (the carnally minded) would not heed because he loves sin more than He loves God (1 Corinthians 2:14).

“But the bible also does say that He ( Christ) wishes that none should perish. But we know that universalism is wrong. We broke his rules.”

Yes, you already know that’s not true. Remember that in Romans 8:7, the carnally minded will not believe. So when you quoted 1 Timothy 2:4, it is not to be taken literally, nor should it be understood as God removing the mental carnality from all mankind so anyone can indeed believe. It is simply God’s will in two senses:

1. God’s desire to have all kinds of men be saved (context 2:1-4)
2. And a general desire that all be given the chance to know the good news (in this case, a good testimony through being good and peaceable citizens).

“Same way the daughter broke the father's. But because she is helpless and is seeking forgiveness and earnestly wants to do right the father helps. But if she takes advantage of this grace. The father does not have to help her, because she is breaking his rules”

Jesus is willing to save anyone if they want to believe; that means the un-Elect can be saved as well, but the difference is that the Elect are drawn in, and the un-Elected are left alone. Borrowing your explanation, the Father does not help the un-Elect because of their refusal to believe.

HI Pierre, we haven't talked for a while; how are you?

Since the understanding of the Gospel requires the Holy Spirit, is that an example of being elect? Because two people can get different understandings from the same passage, but only the one with the understanding from the Holy Spirit truly understands the passage

I'll say yes to that question (1 Corinthians 2:14).

But wait... I've also read that the Holy Spirit comes to you only if you ask for It... God doesn't just grant It to you
What if... God doesn't control us like that, but He just gives us a path and lets us make the decision
If we choose wrong, it's our consequence. If we choose right, it's our salvation.

Good question. Yes, He would grant that to anyone who would ask. However, in connection to your next question, the problem is that if He doesn't control us then none of us would go to heaven.

Again, Romans 8:7 states that the Carnally minded is in emnity with God for he is not subject to God, neither can he be. And the reason for that is in the preceding verses 6-7.

I was questioning it for a while... But just today, I read a verse.
Romans 8:28
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose.
(I read the Indonesian translation but I took this from the NIV om the internet)
God has a plan, a purpose. It says "those who are called". Are these the elect we were talking about?

All too often in the church and elsewhere, the Gospel as been reduced to such a level that they've becoe mere cliches, than the message that is meant to convey proper understanding, urgency, and godly sorrow. that is, in the Evangelical world. Outside of the said world are gospels that not.

THE EVANGELICAL GOSPELS
The Gospels that are shared today are so short that it becomes like a casual invitation. It is short for a good reason as it is meant to be passed to passerbyers in a form of leaflets, cards, and tracts; but that is all that are taught to Christians. The two most common Gospel presentations are: The Four Laws, 5 Things God wants to Know, and the Romans Road.

In it's most simplest form, the Gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ and so the said presentations have. However, without depth, it remains a shallow message almost flippant, and the sender is no better for that is all that s/he are taught.

While they are also taught the Bridge Illustration, an effective tool indeed and sin is properly defined (missing the mark, and serves as a debt and a wall), but again, nothing more than that. And the thing they all have in common is that God is hardly mentioned, only that He loves them.

God is not just the reason why Jesus is sent, but why sinners are condemned. Since the doctrine of Hell is so controversial, it is necessary for the hearers to know why sin is so to Him, why such a place exists, and why the punishment is eternal.

By detailing them only then will the Gospel have power; for only those who have godly sorrow, repents (2 Corinthians 7:10).

But the evangelical gospel has not them. The Four Laws only says God loves them, and the Romans Road and the Five Things contained only promises that God loves and forgives them, and offers salvation if they believe.

So, in effect, they're essentially a Gospel in name, only. And while it is harsh to say that those Gospel presentations "False", if they're but labels and summaries, than are they it truly the Gospel message?

THE GOSPEL HERESIES (Galatians 1:6-9)
Outside Evangelicalism are the gospels that are truly false. They, most often, do two things: add works to the Gospel, and/or, distort God Himself.

Groups that are most known to commit the former are the Roman Catholic Church, most of the Church of Christ, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS), Jehovah's Witnesses, the Roman Catholic Church etc, while the latter is all of the mentioned except the first two.

THE WORKS OF THE LAW (Romans 4:4-5, 10:1-4, & 11:6)
On the first heresy, the most common work that is added to the Gospel is Baptism; an ordiance that was orginally a rite of purification, but come to replace Circumcision for the Church, as a symbol of set-apartness The early Church had to combat those who've claimed that Circumcision was necessary for salvation, but since the Reformation it is Baptism.

And with Baptism comes the rest of the Mosaic Law such as the 10 Commandments, the greatest commandment, tithing, and other periphrials (depending on what group is asked).

The problem with this is that only Christ finished work, saves. He died to the law we can never keep perfectly so we can be free from it (Galatians 10:10-13). Not only it denegrates His sacrifice, but imposes an impossible standard, no one can be saved by. Such a gospel will only condemn (Galatians 5:4).

BLASPHEMIES ON GOD HIMSELF (Exodus 20:4, Isaiah 43:10, & 48:16-17)
Of the second heresy, Jesus is the one most under attack, and the chief enemy are the Unitarians who believed that God is one person, and Jesus is merely a created being (1 John 4:1-2 cf. John 1:1-3, 14). The leading group against Jesus' divine nature are the Jehovah's Witnesses who not only reduced Him to a human being but claimed He was Michael the Archangel.

Other groups wouldn't go that far, calling Him a good man, a prophet.

The most unusual attack on God came from the LDS as not only they demoted Jesus but two other persons of the Godhead. They've done it in this fashion: all were created human being but managed to have accomplished godship by their goodness. The doctrine of Eternal Progression not only claimed this, but gives opportunity for all of the most obedient.

With all this said, the problem is obvious: if you have a distorted God, then you have a different god. A god that is not only false but does not save. It is an idol like any other (Psalm 115:2-8) and the one who believes it is condemned.

Meh. Inerrantist Christianity has problems, because the Bible is not consistent. It is not inerrant. One can either accept this and move forward, or refuse to accept it, entering into a never-ending defense of the indefensible.

I speak as a Christian. I simply accept the Bible for what it is, and I recognize the attempts of humans to have God represent them and their ideas.

Either God is both all powerful and all good, or God is not. If God is not, then this is all pointless. If God is, then God will not let anyone perish who does not wish to perish - and I mean actively wish, not just "oh, you didn't say the secret word, so off to Hell you go!"

And another thing. Who thought it made sense to have an all powerful, all good God torture nonbelievers for eternity? That makes zero sense. Belief is not volitional. I can't choose to believe in something. Belief is a reaction to the environment and the evidence. For God to torture those who do not believe is literally God torturing people for things they could not control. That makes God into an evil monster. If you want a false gospel, start right there. All those apologetics about God loving everyone, but thinking it is sufficient to not present to them the evidence that God knows would convince them to do the right thing of their own free will... that's some evil, right there.

So, yeah. Inerrantist Christianity has problems. It wants to put its faith in texts written by humans. It is silly. If it helps you sleep at night, I don't begrudge anyone their personal beliefs. But don't get on a high horse and try to tell people they're doomed if they don't believe the same crazy, self-contradicting stuff you do.

Look at the evidence with an open mind. Free yourself. Where it will lead you, I can't say. I am a Christian, still - although my beliefs are definitely not orthodox or mainstream. They also aren't an indefensible spaghetti pile of illogical dogma.

“Meh. Inerrantist Christianity has problems, because the Bible is not consistent. It is not inerrant. One can either accept this and move forward, or refuse to accept it, entering into a never-ending defense of the indefensible.”

Hi DropHammer
It would only be true if neither side is listening, or unable to understand.

“I speak as a Christian. I simply accept the Bible for what it is, and I recognize the attempts of humans to have God represent them and their ideas.”

Here is the problem with your position: if the significant part of the bible is contradictory or not inspired, then who is to say what is and what isn’t inspired? That casts in doubt, all of scripture, including everything concerning Jesus.

You can say that you have a good reason for believing in Him because He is established in history as there were extrabiblical records of Him, but then what you do is to trust anything said by Him or of Him in scripture, One man’s wisdom is another man’s heresy. And you will be picking and choosing what you think is right and what is more palatable to you.

Lastly, you can appeal to reason or common sense, but without an established standard of right and wrong, you can never prove yours is correct. It is only 60 years ago that we’ve deemed black people and Jews as subhumans. We look at the former as not as intelligent because science at the time measure brain size as a measure of intelligence. We also saw women as unequal to men and not as intelligent, but at least more than your average African. That is only a 60 years ago, but the latter view is still held by people in 3rd world countries held that view. And before Christianity changed Europe, sacrificing people to the gods were acceptable, and raiding and selling slaves was the norm. In the next 100 years, our views might change back to what it was once before.

“Either God is both all powerful and all good, or God is not. If God is not, then this is all pointless. If God is, then God will not let anyone perish who does not wish to perish - and I mean actively wish, not just "oh, you didn't say the secret word, so off to Hell you go!"”

OK, do you believe God is good? My questions will also answer for the point below.