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Exactly what crime did he commit?

Exactly what crime did he commit? | THE DEMOCRATS KEEP SAYING THE PRESIDENT BROKE THE LAW AND THAT IS WHY HE MUST BE IMPEACHED; BUT HE IS NOT CHARGED WITH BREAKING ANY LAW IN THE ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT | image tagged in memes,philosoraptor | made w/ Imgflip meme maker
913 views 58 upvotes Made by Perspicacity 4 years ago in politics
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20 Comments
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4 ups, 4y
Mocking Spongebob Meme | Well, they keep moving the goalposts So it’s kind of hard to keep up | image tagged in memes,mocking spongebob | made w/ Imgflip meme maker
4 ups, 4y
2 ups, 4y,
1 reply
I know you guys are unsatisfied about how the charge in Article I -- "Abuse of Power" doesn't have a pre-existing definition. Well, here's my take on it.

The President of the United States, by virtue of the unique nature and powers of his office as our Chief Executive, is capable of doing all sorts of things that average people simply aren't. If we had to pre-define and criminalize all of the possible activities that a U.S. President could engage in, then our task would be endless. That's why the Founders didn't even try. Instead, they wrote the following into our Constitution: a President may be impeached for "treason, bribery, and other high crimes & misdemeanors." Most constitutional scholars regard the last phrase in particular as a flexible one, and a fundamentally political phrase whose ultimate definition resides in the attitudes of Congress itself.

In this case, Congress simply decided that the Trump-Ukraine scheme -- and the total stonewalling by the White House in failure to answer Congressional subpoenas in investigation of the same (Article II) -- amounted to a "high crime or misdemeanor." And yeah, regardless of the precise scope of Executive privilege (a complex legal subject), no one can really say that Congress doesn't get to speak up and exert its power when its own subpoenas are going unanswered.

The total breakdown of the usual horsetrading between our branches of government over executive privilege: This is truly unprecedented! If nothing else -- we're about to make some new law!

Also recall: in (most of our) lifetimes, the Republican Congress defined Bill Clinton's perjury about an Oval Office BJ to be a "high crime and misdemeanor." Not everyone agreed that this lie by Clinton amounted to a "high" crime, but the House of Representatives was still allowed to proceed with impeachment upon that theory. Why? Because they had the votes. Until Clinton was acquitted in the Senate, that is.

What Trump did in Ukraine is not as easy to understand or tabloid-ready as an Oval Office BJ, but a lot of people (myself included) believe that Trump's plans in that regard were far more destabilizing to our republic than a sexual indiscretion.

I know I'll never convince you of that, but that's what it is in a nutshell.

Also, speaking of perjury: If Trump's ever placed under oath about this, you can bet he will perjure himself faster than you can say "Monica" if questioned on almost any subject.
2 ups, 4y
The whole problem with "abuse of power" is that it is subjective and merely an opinion, it can not be proven since it is not defined. You think he abused his power, I think he didn't. How do you prove who is correct?

If the House had bi-partisan support it may have made more sense. In this case, the only bi-partisan support was against it. The whole thing just looks like "we hate him and know we can't beat him in the upcoming election".

The second concern is that while not required, historically, every impeachment had an underlying crime associated with it. In this case, the President is not charged with any crime.

BTW, Clinton's perjury is a high crime as defined by the constitution. He was also charged with the Obstruction of Justice when he refused to release documents after directed to by the SCOTUS.

This whole thing backfired. Every poll has turned against impeachment and it will cost the Democrats.
1 up, 4y
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8 ups, 4y,
1 reply
The Democrats say the President is not above the and that he broke the law. Yet there are no criminal charges or any law listed that he broke in the Articles of Impeachment.

The two things he is charged with are not defined in any criminal code.

Abuse of Power is not a defined criminal offense anywhere and is very subjective. It is only the opinion of the Democrats.

Obstruction of Congress is also not a defined criminal offense. The Executive Branch is an EQUAL branch of government. The Executive Branch has the right to question and push back on the Congress when they place a demand on the Executive Branch. Congress can then go to the SCOTUS and ask for a ruling. Congress did not do this. Therefore, since he is not defying a SCOTUS ruling, he did not obstruct, he questioned their right.

None of this appears like it is based on law.
6 ups, 4y,
1 reply
Please cite the U.S. codes that list Abuse of Power or Obstruction of Congress as a crime.

You can't because neither are defined as crimes.
7 ups, 4y,
3 replies
Sorry, you're wrong. You are misconstruing an impeachable offense with a crime. A criminal offense must have a codified law on the books that was broken. Neither charge in this impeachment is defined in any U.S. law.

The constitution was written in such a way so as a President can be impeached for almost any reason. However, historical, there is always an underlying crime charged.

This will be the only impeachment in history in which there was no underlying charge of a crime being committed.

The Democrats tried bribery and extortion, but there was no evidence to support the charges so they dropped them and made up Abuse of Power and Obstruction of Congress. Neither is a crime and both are subjective arguments and open to debate.

BTW, The specific crimes charged against Clinton were lying under oath (perjury) and obstruction of justice, both of which are codified crimes.
5 ups, 4y,
1 reply
Look, how many times do I have to ask you to stop hurting people with these facts?
[deleted]
2 ups, 4y,
1 reply
His comment is NOT based in fact. He says the Democrats dropped bribery and extortion and yet under Article I is described in painstaking detail exactly how Trump's actions fall under the exact definition of bribery, which they put under Abuse of Power because it is.

The way you guys work harder to defend the President than his own lawyers do is impressive but it is ridiculous how you think you can just say things and it makes things that are true, false and things that are false, true. The fact is that the Democrats have laid out their case thoroughly, and your wishful thinking is not going to dismiss their case so easily. The way y'all high five each other when someone says something you only wish was true is just juvenile.
5 ups, 4y
Why do you think the lies you tell yourself to avoid admitting you're an idiot will have any affect on people smart enough to not fall to Democrat bullshit in the first place? Just go back to your echo chamber and wallow in your retardation until 2024 when you might have a chance to get welfare checks again.
[deleted]
2 ups, 4y
Then post memes that say "what impeachable offense has trump committed." I'm using the terminology of the question you set. You asked what laws he broke and the Articles clearly outline what law he broke. What the f**k do you want?
[deleted]
2 ups, 4y,
2 replies
Listen, I'll tell you what will settle this:

Get involved in a lawsuit that entails a Motion of Discovery granted by the judge. Then withhold everything you are requested for discovery. When the judge sanctions you, ask exactly which statute in the criminal code you've broken.

Whatever the judge answers, that's your answer. That is your codified crime Trump has committed. Obstruction of Congress in their duty to check and balance the President is that. That is what Trump cannot, by law, do. That is a crime. That is THE impeachable crime. He definitely may not bribe and extort which is what that phone call was, but like Clinton's bl***ob, he DEFINITELY cannot obstruct Congress' investigation. It is not allowed. He did something he is not allowed to do. He cannot do the thing we have a law against.
6 ups, 4y,
1 reply
Again you are wrong.

The Democrats did not go to a court to get a ruling on their demands for discovery.

The Executive Branch is an EQUAL branch of government. The Executive Branch has the right to question and push back on the Congress when they place a demand on the Executive Branch.

Congress then has the option to go to the SCOTUS and ask for a ruling. Congress did not do this. Therefore, since he is not defying a court ruling, he did not obstruct justice, he merely questioned Congress's right to privileged information. That is why the President was not charged with Obstruction of Justice. Instead, the Democrats made up the charge "Obstruction of Congress", which is not a defined crime.

Secondly, as far as "describing" so-called bribery in the articles, in the end, they did not charge him with bribery. They dropped the charge when it was clear they did not have any evidence to prove a crime.

Not one witness the Democrats questioned had direct knowledge of a crime and they even testified that they didn't. They only had hearsay, speculation, and presumption. Hearsay, speculation, and presumption are not even admissible in a court of law. A judge would have all that witness testimony thrown out and removed from the record.

This was purely a partisan witch-hunt. They could not even convince all the Democrats to vote for it.
[deleted]
2 ups, 4y,
1 reply
That's what the IG request for the transcript was!
3 ups, 4y
I don't know what your statement has to do with anything we are discussing. The IG is not a member of the Judiciary, and secondly, the President released the transcript.

Again, no crime was charged or committed.
1 up, 4y
Husband: "Why are you so mad?"
Wife: "If you don't know, then I'm not going to tell you!"

Republicans: "Why do you want to impeach the President?"
Democrats: "We're not going to put any charges in our articles of impeachment!"
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    THE DEMOCRATS KEEP SAYING THE PRESIDENT BROKE THE LAW AND THAT IS WHY HE MUST BE IMPEACHED; BUT HE IS NOT CHARGED WITH BREAKING ANY LAW IN THE ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT