Does The Think Tank agree? Is there a price too high for freedom?

So you are willing to kill? Who do you shoot? The people sent by those that wish to take away your rights, or do you go right after those that sent them in the first place?

I don't need to kill to protect my rights. You can't force me to do anything. Yes you can shoot me, but then I still haven't done what you wanted now have I?

Here's a bonus: Worried about America coming for your guns? Stop making it an all or nothing argument. Fewer and fewer people own guns in the US and by refusing that there can be gun laws you will get the masses to vote against them and they have the power of government behind them. (I do not own any guns, but I like them. I have plenty of acreage that I allow anyone to hunt. I am not anti-gun, but today I am more afraid of a angry white man with an arsenal thinking he has to protect his guns at any cost.)

Now think back to when I was in High School (early 80's) and most of the vehicles in the student lot had a shotgun or rifle in the back window. No one was afraid of them. Why? Because the gun manufacturers hadn't started in their nonstop they are coming for your guns lies yet. Today it's 24/7 of people warning other people that tomorrow is the day! And when it's not, it the next day! And it has sold guns by the ton! And many of you fell for it. And if I know Americans, you rather continue to believe them rather than admit you were conned.

OP lives in Europe.

Yeah. There is no gun crisis where I live. And thankfully, we are not completely disarmed like the people in the soon-to-become shithole called the United Kingdom are.

Still, me and my friends tend to carry switchblades, telescopes (metal bars which fold like telescopes or radio antennas, thus the name. Not sure how they're called in English) or similar concealable melee weapons wherever we go. We are from a town where crime is non-existent to the point that policemen are a rare sight, but you can never know in what situation you may find yourself in.

I bet there's no age limits there on buying kitchen knives too. Or rape gangs that are tolerated. But I suppose Britain hasn't had war on their land for awhile.

Good for you. Keep safe. You can carry those and never need them but if you do, it just can be once and you're dead. Sorry for the low IQ answer.

First the former, and then the latter if they persist, regardless of who that may be. An order-follower is always more responsible for a crime than the order-giver. "I was just following orders" is not a valid excuse.

They don't need to kill you to take away your rights. For example, if they come to confiscate something from you or haul you away, they can just shoot you in the limbs and immobilize you that way. Hell, even a headshot can be survived if you're lucky enough (or unlucky, depending on how you look at it).

I don't care that much about guns. Here in Bosnia, the cops are allowed to shoot only when they're being shot at. Any other situation and they end up in court (unlike America where they get away with minor consequences (getting fired at worst) for pretty much anything).

Anyways, that's not the point. The point is: is there a price too high for freedom? Is killing just if it is to become free? I say it is. If freedom is under a question mark, everything else is irrelevant.

That would hold true if the order-follower was blackmailed in a dramatic way (for example, their loved one is kidnapped and will be killed if the order is not obeyed). In any other scenario, the order-giver is powerless without the followers.
To quote Larken Rose: "I'm not scared of the Maos and the Stalins and the Hitlers. I'm scared of the thousands of millions of people that hallucinate them to be 'authority', and so do their bidding, and pay for their empires, and carry out their orders. I don't care if there's one looney with a stupid moustache. He's not a threat if the people do not believe in 'authority' "

Think of it this way: if I told you to kill somebody, and you go and kill the said person, who's more responsible? Me, because I gave the order, or you, because you did the killing? You, of course. Sure, I gave the order, but you are a conscious being with free will. You can refuse my order. Ergo, if you commit the killing, you are more responsible. If you didn't obey, there would be no killing. Or I would kill the person, and then I would be responsible.
It's same with policemen and soldiers. They are not coerced by the state to do their bidding. They joined voluntarily, and are thus responsible for anything they do as law enforcers.
To quote Mahatma Gandhi: "You assist an evil system most effectively by obeying its orders and decrees. An evil system never deserves such allegiance. Allegiance to it means partaking of the evil. A good person will resist an evil system with his or her whole soul."

Sorry for the late reply. Here I go

"Without the order from the leader, the follower wouldn't have any desire or motive to kill"

You speak of these followers as if they are robots instead of human. If your sense of morality and honor are f**ked up to the point that a simple command is enough to get you to kill somebody without considering the action at all, you have fallen from all the graces there are to fall from. You are the dishonourable of the dishonourable.

Yeah, the cases of conscription are coercion are very saddening and regrettable. It was a similar situation with mandatory military service here in Europe in the 90's, but since I wasn't born back then, I don't have much else to say about it.

All in all, I recommend you this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSqBNGxLiAs
If you have and hour and half to spare, it'll definitely be worthwhile.

The two most successful movements to gain freedom were both accomplished without resorting to violence by the oppressed. India's expulsion of the British (Includes my Great Grandfather) and the Civil Rights Movement here in the US.

That didn't mean the oppressors didn't avoid violence, quite the opposite. It was the refusal to back down from the oppression. Lots of people died, were maimed, were tortured by those trying to maintain their grip on power, but both failed.

On the other hand look at those that are fighting back. The Palestinians resorted to violence of the Israeli occupation and that gives cover for the Israeli government to continue to use violence as they are "just protecting their citizens." Had the Palestinians simply sat down in front of the tanks and soldiers and took the beatings, the government would have lost it's average citizen's support quickly as they were just being monsters. Probably would have lost the support of the US quickly as well.

On a different note: I am sorry you feel it necessary to be armed all the time. I travel up and down our east coast a lot and have stopped in depressed areas from time to time for gas or food and I have never felt threatened. I treat everyone like an equal and they tend to resound the same way.

Lol "fewer and fewer people own guns in the US".... There were around 39 million NICS checks last year alone. You posted this comment 2 years ago but it didn't age well. I'm not sure why you would be afraid of an "angry white man with an arsenal thinking he has to protect his guns at any cost" unless you think that people might be coming to try to steal them from him. There was already an "assault weapons" ban in the past that expired. It is pretty clear that the government is steadily chipping away at our right to keep and bear ANY ARMS THAT WE WANT. Incrementalism.... take a little at a time until it is all gone

Gotta have the definition of freedom agreed on before you can get a good answer on this. Are we talking freedom to order what we want from a restaurant, or freedom to kill someone because we think we should be free to do so? There's gotta be bounds.

Freedom to exercise your rights. Rights, as Mark Passio defined them, are actions which do not cause harm to other sentient beings, as opposed to wrongs, which are actions which cause harm to other sentient beings.

As for myself personally, I believe in the freedom of consequence. You can do anything, but will face consequences for whatever you do. You can try to rob me at gunpoint. But if I pull out a knife, slice your throat and leave you for dead wherever you've found me, you can only blame yourself for that.

Here are two most important seminars regarding freedom and morality Mark has done:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dIEemKcy-4E
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PbFBhY0bgJo

Maybe