Islam and Feminism

You could say that. While not being feminist is not a bad thing; if anything, Islam takes it too far in the other direction, being a source of actual hard patriarchy (ie, a "warlords and harems", "war-brides and sex slaves" - it's allowed under Islam as long you make them Mutahs) rather than the Western society boogeyman feminists go on about.

"Islam takes it too far in the other direction"

Perhaps in Africa or the Middle East. But pretty sure thats not supported by Western Muslims. But other than that pretty much yeah

Western Muslims do tend to buck that trend, yet their holy book the Qu'ran not only permits these things it mandates them; for Muslims, Muhammad is the code of conduct and he permitted some nasty stuff.

"yet their holy book the Qu'ran not only permits these things it mandates them;"

My understanding is that that there are a few verse which are considered controversial, whuch are politely ignored by Muslims or ecplained away. But so does the Bible have a few verses where you think, oh wait thats bad. And same goes for the Jews.

"Muslims, Muhammad is the code of conduct and he permitted some nasty stuff."

Well, uh, as I understand it Muhammad was a ratger nice fellow. Comparatively. He was essentially Muslim Jesus and actted accordingly. According to the Quran he is supposed to be the paragon of Compassion and Kindness and honesty and justice and all that jazz. I mean take one look at his history and you'll see the guy isn't that bad. But he was just an example, what he did isn't law and if you do find it to be law, that would be, according to the Quran, Heresy.

As I understand it atleast

As I understand it, the Bible never mandates or permits child marriage or sex slaves to name a couple, so the controversy isn't a 1-to-1 comparison. Also these controversial teachings are found under Mosaic Law, being for a specific place and time, so even if one disagrees with them, they were temporary and predate and came to an end the New Covenant made with Christ, which is the central point of Christianity. I haven't read the Talmud so I can't comment on that.

I don't know what historical sources you've read to say Muhammad was rather nice, but going by his actions in the Qu'ran, you're statement is quite off, please share these sources with me. Muhammad is such a far cry below Jesus I'm going to go on a bit of a rant here. Yes he's supposed to be that according to Muslims, but looking at that and you see some things don't add up (there's reasons for Islam's Sunni/Shia split).

I judge religions, including my own, by their teachings and who they follow. Muhammad had a child bride (Aisha - Sahih al-Bukhari 3894), discriminated against black people (he had black slaves - Sahih al-Bukhari 7263 and said Satan looks like a black man - Ibn Ishaq, page 243), supported his religion by robbing people (Ibn Ishaq 281-289), started a war with Mecca when he had a chance to live in peace in Medina (Ibn Ishaq 289 - 321), ordered the execution of anyone who tries to leave Islam (Ibn Ishaq Bukhari 6876, 6922), tortured people for money (Ibn Ishaq 515) and more. Before anyone says "people of all beliefs have done these things", I'm talking about the mandates and actions for the central person in Islam, the current code of conduct himself for Muslims, Muhammad. Jesus didn't and doesn't do any of this.

"there's reasons for Islam's Sunni/Shia split"

I thought it was about who was the heir to Muhammads Caliphate?

"Muhammad had a child bride"

Yes and I have to admit its quite deplorable. One of the things I agree with, is that that is unacceptable. Though Child Marriages were quite common back then, doesn't make it any less bad

"discriminated against black people"

Bht I thought his best friend was an Ethiopian called Bilal, whi he bought out of slavery from his Pagan Uncle? He even said

"People are as equal as the teeth of the comb." (Context: The old Arabic combs had equal in height and width teeth for combing the hair)

and

"...you should show courtesy and be cordial with each other, so that nobody should consider himself superior to another nor do him harm." Riyadh-us-Saleheen. Hadith 602."

and

"(Allah) has revealed to me that you should adopt humility so that no one oppresses another." Riyadh-us-Salaheen, Hadith 1589"

and

"Abu Hurairah narrated: Messenger of Allah said, “Allah does not look at your figures, nor at your attire but He looks at your hearts [and deeds].”

"supported his religion by robbing people"

Wel I can tell you that offensive action, such as robbing people, was forbiden. Specifically to raiding:

"Āṣim bin Kulaib relates from his father that an Anṣārī Companion narrates that, "we set out on a Ghazwah with the Holy Prophet. On one occasion, the people were struck by severe hunger and became very much distressed (since they had no provisions with them). Upon this they caught a few goats from a flock, slaughtered them and began cooking them. Our pots were boiling with their meat when the Holy Prophet arrived. The Holy Prophet immediately upset our pots with his bow and angrily began grinding the pieces of meat beneath his feet and exclaimed, ‘Plunder is no better than carrion""

" a war with Mecca when he had a chance to live in peace in Medina"

http://www.muhammadfactcheck.org/?muhammad=myth-16-muhammad-broke-a-truce-to-mercilessly-conquer-mecca

" tortured people for money"

"Hisham said: I heard Prophet Muhammad say: "Verily, Allah will torture those who torture people in this world." Likewise, Jabir ibn Abdullah reported that Prophet Muhammad commanded: "Do not torture the creation of Allah the Exalted."

"Jesus didn't and doesn't do any of this."

And neitger did Muhammad as I have shown.

I don't like Religon, but when you outright lie about it. Smh. Somewhere you need to draw a line man.

I'm not lying, and while I disagree with you I don't think you are either. By the way, have you read the Qu'ran? Or did you just google it (at the very least, I cross-referenced my sources with what's said in the Qu'ran itself). While you're right about the main reason for the Sunni/Shia split, another point of contention between them is how strictly they follow the Qu'ran with Sunni being hardline and Shia being more loose, which has exacerbated the ongoing conflict. About his companions, a person can have friends or lovers from a group they're prejudiced against so that doesn't prove anything; for example, HP Lovecraft - the guy who wrote the Cthulhu Mythos/Yog-Sotothery - was anti-Semitic but had a Jewish wife. You say you proved Muhammad didn't do the things I said he did right after you concede he had a child bride and that it was deplorable, which is inconsistent of you.

You also didn't show that Muhammad didn't do these things - at most he just verbally condemned them; one rule for him, one for everyone else. Also that quote about the comb is an old Arabic proverb but I have found no evidence that it came from the Qu'ran. Even if Muhammad did say that, he certainly didn't apply it in practice as shown in the examples I gave. Second, where in the Qu'ran is that second quote you cited from?

If they are forbidden, then why did Muhammad allow his followers to carry out raids? How do you explain the actions that are detailed in Ibn Ishaq 281-289? Also, that link you posted still says that Muhammad started a war with Mecca instead of the Meccan ally who did the deed, and he didn't even try for a resolution that didn't involve war (even just a Banu Bakr execution); also, you know the saying "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth"? Here Muhammad did the equivalent of taking a life for an eye. (Addendum) I'm a Christian and while Islam has some good teachings (don't steal, don't lie...) it's also got a lot wrong with it so I'm not a fan of Islam and - like I do for everyone else - I take Muslims themselves on a case by case basis.

Continuing:

"Permission to fight has been given to those who are being fought, because they were wronged. Verily, Allah is able to give them victory. They are those who have been evicted from their homes without right and only because they say: Our Lord is Allah.

Surat al-Hajj 22:39"

This verse makes clear that the reason the Muslims were allowed to fight was because they had been driven out and violently oppressed only because of their religion.

So, here I realised a mistake I made, Muhammad did order raids on caravans, or atleast his Generals did, to disrupt the economic ability of Mecca, but this happened after a declaration of War was issued by Mecca. Do apologies. However:

"The Prophet prohibited plundering and mutilation.

Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 5197,"

"Whoever plunders the wealth of others is not one of us."

Source: Sunan al-Tirmidhī 1123"

Nevertheless, the collection of spoils is an incidental consequence of war. The Prophet would collect the spoils and distribute them equitably among the community as charity. Moreover, the Prophet forbade Muslims from killing non-combatants and civilians, and he commanded them to behave magnanimously with the enemy.

"Go forward in the name of Allah, with Allah, and upon the religion of the Messenger of Allah. Do not kill the elderly, children, young people, or women. Do not steal from the spoils but collect them, and behave righteously and in the best manner. Verily, Allah loves those who behave in the best way."

Source: Sunan Abī Dāwūd 2608

" that it came from the Qu'ran. Even if Muhammad did say that, he certainly didn't apply it in practice"

I didn't say it came from the Quran, just that Muhammad said it. And I agree, in practice that stopped no one from being racist, but I suppose the point I am trying to make is that the Prohet himself wasn't a racist, as I have shown. Still did own slaves so thats some minus points for him.

"where in the Qu'ran is that second quote you cited from"

The one with the sheep?

https://www.quora.com/Was-Prophet-Muhammad-a-virtuous-man-or-a-man-of-good-character-In-some-hadiths-he-is-portrayed-as-a-slave-trading-sex-obsessed-man-If-these-hadiths-are-true-why-do-Muslims-follow-him-And-if-these-hadiths-aren’t-authentic-which-ones-are

Here, take a look at this. Both sides are here and argue better than I can

"have you read the Qu'ran? Or did you just google it"

A mix of Both

"About his companions, a person can have friends or lovers from a group they're prejudiced against"

True, I suppose and after some research, I do have to coincide that Muhammad owned black slaves (Something I do also condem). I tried to find how he treated his slaves but couldn't really find any info on that. I did find however that theoretically the system of Slavery in place back then in the middle east was not targeting any race, culture or religon. Practically though, it was obvious Blacks were the most prominent slaves and Raciam against them also prevalent. Then again Colonists from Europe also used Religon to justify their enslavement of and discrimination against Africans, so using Religon as a justification is nothing new or confined to Islam

"You say you proved Muhammad didn't do the things I said he did right after you concede he had a child bride and that it was deplorable"

A bad phrasing of words, let me rephrase that

Most of what you claim, excluding the Slavery and Child Marriage part, he didn't do

"You also didn't show that Muhammad didn't do these things - at most he just verbally condemned "

You neither actually. You have quoted this Ibn Ishaq guy, who some modern Muslim scholars call a revisionist btw, Who then claims that the Prohet Muhammad suppoerted the actions of the people who raided and pillaged, when clearly he does not. As I understand Muslim scripture, Muhammad never actually wrote down anything himself, but all we find of his "direct" Quotes is actually just retelling, so there is a very real possibility that Ibn Ishaq might well be twisting Muhammad's words. Still, I can obly assume that Muhammad Condems, and he did, the followers who raided and pillaged.

"why did Muhammad allow his followers to carry out raids"

He didn't [...]

"still says that Muhammad started a war with Mecca instead of the Meccan ally who did the deed, and he didn't even try for a resolution that didn't involve war"

This might be a bit off topic, but Meccans, who have been from the beginning histile to Muslims and Muhammad, did issue this Ultimatum to the Madina leadership about Muhammad:

"You have given protection to our companion. We swear by Allah that you must fight him or exile him, or else we will come at you in full force. We will kill your fighting men and take your women.

Source: Sunan Abī Dāwūd 3004" (Context, they say Allah, because its the Arabic wird for God)

Apology accepted, since even if it wasn't on his direct orders, his generals did do so and Muhammad himself didn't censure them for it. I'm sure Surat al-Hajj 22:39 has been used by jihadis since it makes no distinction on how to define an enemy or how to fight them. Compare that to the Bible passage where God commanded the Cannanites to be wiped out, which was for a specific circumstance (long after peaceful offers had been violently rejected), place and time. According to that Qu'ranic verse however, the Muslim who goes jihadi and shoots/stabs/blows up/runs people over is equally justified as the Muslim who fights with words.

Here lies the contradiction; those verses indicate Muhammad prohibited plundering and yet plundering still occurred on his watch. While it is magnanimous to spare the non-combatants (I wonder how throughly that order was obeyed - I'll research and get back to you, and I used the same approach of Qu'ran and google to find what I find), how about the ones who were enslaved? Or what happened to Dhimmis who don't pay the jizya or convert to Islam? Also, I'm not just talking about the conduct of anyone, I'm also talking about that of Muhammad himself, the standard of conduct for Muslims - and not a good standard, I daresay. While as far as I know, there was no bias in particular in the Islamic system of slavery against blacks, Muhammad himself seemed prejudiced against black people, and remember in conjuction with this and having a child bride he's held up as the gold standard for Muslims. Also, that link you provided has a lot of response from people pointing out that he was less virtuous than the original responder claimed. Fianlly, while the Meccans were hostile, the circumstances remain unchanged; a Meccan ally attacked Muhammad's people and he took it out on Mecca. While you've done some research - especially being someone who by your own words doesn't like religion - there's a lot more to do.

Yeah, nuthin screams nice boy like murdering a guy and then raping his daughter am I right?

One example is how, when a couple gets married, property didn't become the husbands. Marriage back then in other places could've merely been for property. They also said that marriage, if the wife did not consent, wouldn't be valid. Moreover, they did have an emphasis and reverence of motherhood.
And in fact, some muslims consider the hijab to be a more feminist thing than standing outside naked with 'All men are scum'.
Unfortunately, Islam does have a 'behind the times' problem, since the Qu'ran is, to them, infallible. But I don't think Islamophobic purge boys are at all justified.

I'd call Islam progressive like saying cholera isn't as bad as dysentery. I'm not calling for a purge, I'm calling out those people who champion Islam thinking it's feminist.

The hijab didn't begin as a symbol of feminism, but as a sign of humility and distinguishing Muslim women from non-Muslim women who were their subjects or slaves.

Hmm.