Why Salvation is by Faith Alone.

The Gospel in a nutshell.

Upvoted!

[image deleted] The Mosaic Law/Teaching is of two:

1. The Letter (2:11-13)
2. Conscience (2:14-16)

Neither one can ever justify because:

a) God requires moral perfection (Matthew 5:20 & James 2:10)
b) Man is rebelliously sinful by nature (Romans 5:12-16 & 8:6-7)
c) And God will not overlook his sins, nor will He count his good works (Isaiah 64:6)

Even to say that we can do just one thing for our salvation would still add a yoke no one can keep (Acts 15:1, 10).

Thus. we're saved only by Faith Alone and nothing else (Ephesians 2:8-9).

And to still insist in adding to His work on the cross (Hebrews 9:12), is to denigrate His sacrifice (Galatians 2:21), and to fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).

Sole Fide is wrong. It's only by the grace of God people are saved. This is what you are saying, by reason: "if righeous works don't save then neither sinful 'works' condemn." Works are intergal to a living faith. Matthew 25:31-46. Parable of the Sheep and the Goats. James 2:14-26."faith and works". And why throw in a quote from Isaiah which has to do with the Old Covenant of the Law (out of context) therefore irrelevant?

Hi HomerD

Before I begin, did you read the scriptures I've given on the chatbox?

Spiritual Milk. You are trying to "hook" someone who already has faith. Your problem is, once you become a believer, your message goes nowhere.

HomerD, I think you're missing the point; that or you're not being intellectually honest with me and yourself.

Assuming that you have read Matthew 5:20, can your righteousness exceed that of the Scribes & Pharisees? Yes, they're hypocrites but that's besides the point as Jesus said, follow whatever they say as they sit on Moses' seat but follow not their hypocrisy (Matthew 23:2).

Can you follow the law without breaking - one - commandment in James 2;10?

Then, in Isaiah 64:6, our righteousness are like filthy rags before the LORD.

It is not that the LORD never really wanted us to live righteously, He does. In fact, Paul said that it is not the hearers who are just before the LORD but the doers of the Law who are just (Romans 2:6-7). And, those who does not have the letter of the Law have the law written in their hearts, via, conscience (2:14-16).

However, whenever we sin, it is reversed or gets sullied, Read Romans 2:17-25.

Now you have already read 3:19-20. The preceding those two verses Paul made a general indictment on both Gentles who are sinners (1:18-24) and Jews who are obedient (2:17-24) to be altogether guilty before God starting with the words "There is none righteous, not even one...."(3:9-18).

Paul wrote chapters 1-3 to make a key point... the Law does not save anyone. And He was not say thus on the civil and ceremonial commandments but the moral commandment (did you read 2:17-24?).

He provided the problen, now to the solution you have already read on the above meme as "All have fallen short of the glory of God but being justified (declared righteous) FREELY by His GRACE (undeserved kindness)" through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ.

In other modern version, it says being justified as a FREE GIFT. Salvation is a .... free gift....

The heresy of Sole Fide tempts people to Faith without conversion, without conversion (repentence) what is your faith? "the demons likewise believe, and tremble". . .

<<(declared righteous) FREELY by His GRACE (undeserved kindness)">> in other words salvation. Salvation is by the Grace of God. Alone.

Out of your own mouth, then, Sole Fide is anathema. Man (people) are saved by the Grace of God alone in my initial response. With and by the grace of God Man co-operates with God's Grace though faith and an active faith is shown by a living faith, or "acts", otherwise known as "works". The Catholic Church never taught (officially) that anyone could 'earn' their way into heaven, but people of faith are supposed to live by it with their actions. Matthew 25:31-46 are the basis of the Church's teachings on the Corporal and Spiritual Works of Mercy (Corporal Works of Mercy: 1. Feed the Hungry 2. Give Drink to the Thirsty 3. Shelter the Homeless 4. Visit the Sick 5. Visit the Imprisoned 6. Bury the Dead, 7. Giving Alms to the Poor. Spiritual Works of Mercy: Counseling the Doubtful, 2. Instructing the Ignorant, 3. Admonishing the Sinner, 4. Comforting the Sorrowful, 5. Forgiving Wrongs, 6. Bearing Wrongs patiently, 7. Praying for the Dead. )

Works without faith are empty, faith likewise without works is empty. They are two sides of one coin. The two cannot be divided. As far as our righteousness being as 'filthy rags' this was never contested by me or argued, and if you are guilty in one respect of the 'Law' either Mosaic or moral, then you are guilty of all of it; this I know as well, but this is not germane to the topic at hand. Each one of us is called to continual repentance to strive always for perfection, but ever aware not to be complacent in one's faith. 1Cor 9:24-27- 10:1-13

"Out of your own mouth, then, Sole Fide is anathema. Man (people) are saved by the Grace of God alone in my initial response."

I've used your initial response to make a greater point: if salvation is by grace alone then there is no allowance for us to earn it. We're not worthy of salvation but He gave it to us. That is grace... undeserved kindness.

"With and by the grace of God Man co-operates with God's Grace though faith and an active faith is shown by a living faith, or "acts", otherwise known as "works".

Now I will answer James 2;14-26. That passage is no support for Grace in cooperation with works because it is not about that at all. In fact, read 15-16 which is the context of 14. Then in vs 18 Someone (not God) may well say to you "You have faith and I have works, show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith by my works". James 2:14-26 is about proving... that you are saved before other people by your works.

"The Catholic Church never taught (officially) that anyone could 'earn' their way into heaven, but people of faith are supposed to live by it with their actions. Matthew 25:31-46 are the basis of the Church's teachings on the Corporal and Spiritual Works of Mercy (Corporal Works of Mercy: ..."

Yes, Matthew 25:31-46 does speak of judgment for those who've failed to do what is right (leaving out the praying for the dead); but the believers WILL do them, as they will also Endure to the End (Ephesians 2:10, Philippians 1:6, & Jude 1:24). How is the latter possible? Please read Galatians 2:20-21

"Works without faith are empty, faith likewise without works is empty. They are two sides of one coin. The two cannot be divided."

I agree, as both cannot be divorced from a Christian's life, but it is not applicable for salvation

"As far as our righteousness being as 'filthy rags' this was never contested by me or argued, and if you are guilty in one respect of the 'Law' either Mosaic or moral, then you are guilty of all of it; this I know as well, but this is not germane to the topic at hand."

It is when you read Romans 2:17-25, especially vs 25..

"Each one of us is called to continual repentance to strive always for perfection, but ever aware not to be complacent in one's faith. 1Cor 9:24-27- 10:1-13"

Not for salvation, HomerD. Instructions, does not equal salvation. To you it is since you believe that salvation is lost on the grounds of disobedience, but if salvation is free... then it is not so.

<if salvation is by grace alone then there is no allowance for us to earn it. We're not worthy of salvation but He gave it to us. That is grace... undeserved kindness.> I never said otherwise, and that was my point, entirely.

I said, "it is by the GRACE of God alone that Man is saved." Ephesians 2:8.
You keep quoting the same verse(s) [9] in Ephesians 2, then ignoring what precedes it. Why?

Where did I ever say grace was earned? That's your mistaken assumption. And then, you think that I link "works" with earning "grace". i did not link "works" with "grace", I said (in so many words) that works and faith are a response to the the grace of God. I say again, faith without works is empty. Righteous works are needed because it is OWED and due to God whether God gives us anything or not because we are His creatures and His servants!

Luke 17 "Will any one of you who has a servant plowing or keeping sheep, say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come at once and sit down at table’? Will he not rather say to him, ‘Prepare supper for me and gird yourself and serve me, till I eat and drink; and afterward you shall eat and drink’? Does he thank the servant because he did what was commanded? So you also when you have done all that is commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.’”

This is the debt we owe to Jesus who gave His life for us on the Cross, to live by his commandments and to take up our crosses and follow Him. There is a lot more to the Gospels and the New Testament than just about "faith", indeed, if one doesn't have "faith" then to read any of the Bible is a useless exercise!

<<To you it is since you believe that salvation is lost on the grounds of disobedience, but if salvation is free... then it is not so.>>>

Do you believe that Judas was saved?

Add also the Two Greatest Commandments which are the sum of all the Law and the Prophets I. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, body and soul, and II. To Love your Neighbor as yourself.

On to 1 Corinthians 9:24-27, Paul is not speaking of salvation either in that passage as contextually he spoke of the Crown in verse 25.

The bible speaks of heavenly rewards in 1 Cor. 3:11-13. In verse 11 further disproves faith + works:

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Salvation could not be established by anyone but Christ. Then 12-14 Paul told the difference between good and bad works which fire will test its qualities. And here is where it is interesting:

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The doers of the work may be sinful in doing it, but s/he him/herself is still saved.... So the crown is not a reward of salvation but a prize to be won. An actual crown, as the bible speaks four others.

Continuing through into 10:1-13 Paul did not speak of the fall as eternal damnation here but only death. In fact, those who do fall are given to Satan to be buffeted. Read please, the following:

5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
- 1 Corinthians 5:5

Recall, the Parable of the Lost Son and Nebuchadnezzar as both went through a "Wilderness experience" but both eventually returned. Suffering has a way of purging characterial imperfections like stripes on the back and fasting (Proverbs 20:30).

So, the latter passage is simply a warning so the impenitent die not.

1 Cor 3:15 is an oblique reference to Purgatory. Too bad that you follow a deficient Bible that deleted parts of the Old Testament. Did you know that Martin Luther wanted to delete the Letter of James, too, because so much of it is contrary to his Sol Fide heresy?

1 Cor 5:5 is lifted completely out of context; Paul is referring to the incestuous adulterer in 1 Cor 4:1-4. It supports your argument in no way.

So the crown is not a reward of salvation but a prize to be won. Prizes are awarded you are really splitting hairs hear with English. I wonder if there was such a distinction made in the Aramaic or ancient Greek of the time.

<Matthew 5:20>

And what precedes this verse? You snatch one verse out of a chapter and miss the greater context. It also says on the same page:

Matthew 5:[16] So let your light shine before men, that they may see your GOOD WORKS, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

You've missed the point there, HomerD. My point is that it is impossible to earn your salvation.

The context of vs 20 is not just 16, but 17-19 where it says that Jesus came not to end the law but to fulfill it and He began with vs 20. He then begun to restate the moral commandments with murder (vs 21-22), adultery (27-28), and so on.

Through Jesus, the law became much more harder to where the disciples began to dispair, saying, "Who then can be saved"? Jesus revealed to them the very answer I've been telling you all along:

"26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."

Recall, Galatians 2:20:

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

There is a bigger picture to consider.

We both believe in original sin; that is scripturally proven. but Paul tells us just how sinful we really are:

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
- Romans 8:6-7

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
- Romans 6:16-18

Servant here is actually the word, Slave.

" it is impossible to earn your salvation. "

YES! CORRECT!!

Where did I ever say salvation can be earned?? No where! Who are you preaching to?
You are arguing against propositions I never made or are being deliberately obtuse.

Living a righteous life isn't about 'earning salvation'. You are STILL ignoring the necessity of "living" as a follower of Christ more than just mouthing 'I believe, therefore I am saved, and don't have to worry because I will go to heaven, no matter what I do, or fail to do, or how I act and what I say). If this is what you are preaching when you say "Sol Fide" you are leading people to hell whether you know it or not!

“ "Doing" and "Obeying" the Commandments are Works. Voila. We do agree then .”

Should we then do or obey the commandments to be saved, or because we’re saved?

We do and obey the commandments because it is the will of God and it is pleasing to Him, even though our righteous acts are as "filthy rags" we are called to conform to his will, and by His grace and our faith those actions are perfected. Your focus is this self-preoccupation and self-interest on 'being saved'. It smacks of presumption of God's grace, which is sinful. It seems less about serving God and more about the self.

YOU
"1 Cor 9:14-27 I found it. Yes, I did say it first. My misunderstanding and my bad. However you take it out of context. M point in using it was that Paul had to EARN his crown."

ME
I find it hard to believe, that you have forgotten your own verse.

YOU
"To have only FAITH was not enough to save him. I agree that if there is no FAITH then salvation is a non-starter. While Faith is essential to salvation, it is BY NO MEANS sufficient in and of itself to save.

ME
It is when the Bible says:

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. - John 5:24

Notice what it doesn't say works in that passage. Jesus clearly says that whoever believes has (that is, have, everlasting life); then He said SHALL NOT... come into condemnation. In the modern translations it satys "will not". So here, all s/he needs is faith alone.

YOU
"It also is the grace of God that acts THROUGH faith, and and our necessary co-operation with the works. You already know the quotes. Ephesians, James, etc. And you already conceded your argument. BTW in a different response. I think were done here.

ME
You've isolated 8 from 9 of Ephesians. I've answered James 2:14-26, and I did not concede anything. Show me where I did.

<ME
It is when the Bible says:>

Do you really want to start that loop all over again?

"We do and obey the commandments because it is the will of God and it is pleasing to Him, even though our righteous acts are as "filthy rags" we are called to conform to his will, and by His grace and our faith those actions are perfected. "

Really? Have you forgotten that you cited 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 to me? Now of course you are doing all that you've just said, until you sin and now you must go to your local priest; for you know that if you do not then no0t only you displease the LORD.... you will go to hell.

And the thing is that you must be proactive i because we sin every... single.... day. To begin with, have you ever loved the LORD with all your heart, soul, mind, & strength of every minute of every day of your life? No one has.

The worst part is that while you think your in the state of grace, but in reality, you were never actually saved to begin with.

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
- Galatians 5:4

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
- Romans 4:4-5

St. Paul calls exhorts us all to work out our salvation with "fear and trembling"? Now why would he say that? If faith and faith alone is all we need and is the guarantee of our salvation?

Talk about gaslighting. 1 Cor 9:14-27 was your quote not mine. You used it first. About the crown being won and not awarded (your words). A very hollow and minor distiction since Paul had to STRIVE to attain it. (there's that four-letter work again. 'works'.)

And as far as the Sacrament of Confession, as a former Catholic you should know about Matthew 16:17-19. "You are Peter and on this rock I will build my ⛪, ... what is bound on earth is bound in heave, etc." and 2 Thess 2:14"standing fast and holding the TRADITIONS which you have learned, whether BY WORD "OR"by epistle." And there goes your Sol Scriptura out the window but that's another discussion.

And what did I say about presuming God's grace? Are you presuming I'm "not saved"? Because I believe Sol Fide is heresy? Well I think there is only One Judge who knows and neither you nor I will know our fate until each of us are standing in front of that Throne.

"Where did I ever say salvation can be earned?? No where! Who are you preaching to?
You are arguing against propositions I never made or are being deliberately obtuse."

Your opposition to Sola Fide, saying that:

1. It no longer values righteousness and nullifies the seriousness of sin
2. Gives no reason for repentance and faith in Christ

Then, your use and understanding of James 2:14-26, Matthew 25:33-41, 1 Corinthians 9:24-27, & 10:1-13.

All of these scriptures, according to your understanding, tells us to obey, but all the while, you kept saying it is entirely by Grace alone. It is as though you are gaslighting me.

HomerD, if salvation is indeed by Grace alone, that we do not earn our salvation, then those scriptures should not be salvific in any way but are to be followed because it is only right and just. For He paid dearly for our salvation as 1 John 4:19 say, "We love because He first loved us".

Of course, this is yet another one of your point; again you seemed to be talking from both sides of your mouth, but I can prove to you that you actually believe the very opposite of your claim with three questions:

1. Can you lose your salvation?

2. What are the grounds of losing your salvation?

3. And if your under damnation, what must you do to return to the state of God's grace?

You have to DO something, right?

Your salvation is at stake, no?

So salvation is never truly by Grace now is it?

You may argue that salvation is given to us believers freely, thus it is indeed by grace, but then one has to keep that free gift.

That involves what, HomerD? Obeying the commandments.

Coupled with Faith and Grace we do our part, and He does His part. Grace in cooperation with works.

"Doing" and "Obeying" the Commandments are Works. Voila. We do agree then .

<<that we do not earn our salvation, >> We both agree

<<By grace alone>> we owe our entire existence, because God created us, and loves us (his grace) and when the world fell, He also made the plan for our salvation.

1. <Can you lose your salvation> of course, through committing Mortal Sin. You were Catholic, you know what a Mortal Sin is.

2 <What are the grounds of losing your salvation> Again, committing a Mortal Sin, which means you with full knowledge and consent and active will of committing such an act, such as, for example, Pre-Meditated Murder, slander, marital infidelity, etc.

3. <And if your under damnation, what must you do to return to the state of God's grace?>
Confess, repent, make reparation if possible, and commit "the" sin no more.

<You have to DO something, right?>

Well, DUH. It is what I have been trying to tell you all along, isn't it? Faith and "works". "WORKS", not the Mosaic Law kind of works, but "Works" like we're talking about here. Finally, some connection.

<Your salvation is at stake, no? >

I told you this about, 20 responses ago, and now you agree?? Hallelujah.

<So salvation is never truly by Grace now is it?>

You don't think it was by anything other than the Grace of God that Jesus was conceived of Mary, the Virgin Mother of God, (remember Luke 1:28 And the angel being come in,
said unto her: Hail, full of GRACE, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.)

and that Jesus is the Way, the Truth,and the Life, and the means of our Salvation?
Ultimately EVERYTHING goes back to God's grace.

<Coupled with Faith and Grace we do our part, and He does His part. Grace in cooperation with works.>

ROFL you don't know how Catholic you sound. YES Therefore, Sol Fide is WRONG. THANK YOU FOR PROVING MY ARGUMENT.

YOU
"Talk about gaslighting. 1 Cor 9:14-27 was your quote not mine. You used it first. About the crown being won and not awarded (your words). A very hollow and minor distiction since Paul had to STRIVE to attain it. (there's that four-letter work again. 'works'.)"

ME
So you did NOT cite or quote that first but I? And accused me of gaslighting? I think now you revealed your true colors.

I would have ended our debate; your willful lie proved your obstinance, worse your ruthlessness in the attempt to win, but decided to continue, lest you claim that a Protestant could not prevail against you, your argumentation, and your use and understanding of the scriptures you used.

It will be a record against you, should you falsely claim victory, deceiving your fellow Catholics.

<<that we do not earn our salvation, >> We both agree

<<By grace alone>> we owe our entire existence, because God created us, and loves us (his grace) and when the world fell, He also made the plan for our salvation.

1. <Can you lose your salvation> of course, through committing Mortal Sin. You were Catholic, you know what a Mortal Sin is.

2 <What are the grounds of losing your salvation> Again, committing a Mortal Sin, which means you with full knowledge and consent and active will of committing such an act, such as, for example, Pre-Meditated Murder, slander, marital infidelity, etc.

3. <And if your under damnation, what must you do to return to the state of God's grace?>
Confess, repent, make reparation if possible, and commit "the" sin no more.

<You have to DO something, right?>

Well, DUH. It is what I have been trying to tell you all along, isn't it? Faith and "works". "WORKS", not the Mosaic Law kind of works, but "Works" like we're talking about here. Finally, some connection.

<Your salvation is at stake, no? >

I told you this about, 20 responses ago, and now you agree?? Hallelujah.

<So salvation is never truly by Grace now is it?>

You don't think it was by anything other than the Grace of God that Jesus was conceived of Mary, the Virgin Mother of God, (remember Luke 1:28 And the angel being come in,
said unto her: Hail, full of GRACE, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.)

and that Jesus is the Way, the Truth,and the Life, and the means of our Salvation?
Ultimately EVERYTHING goes back to God's grace.

<Coupled with Faith and Grace we do our part, and He does His part. Grace in cooperation with works.>

ROFL you don't know how Catholic you sound. YES Therefore, Sol Fide is WRONG. THANK YOU FOR PROVING MY ARGUMENT.

If I can say anything else (I will allow you the last word) a bit of advice: Don't get into a debate with the Jehovah Witness. They use their own bastardised translation of the Bible and will concede nothing. until the end of time.

1 Cor 9:14-27 I found it. Yes, I did say it first. My misunderstanding and my bad. However you take it out of context. M point in using it was that Paul had to EARN his crown. To have only FAITH was not enough to save him. I agree that if there is no FAITH then salvation is a non-starter. While Faith is essential to salvation, it is BY NO MEANS sufficient in and of itself to save.It also is the grace of God that acts THROUGH faith, and and our necessary co-operation with the works. You already know the quotes. Ephesians, James, etc. And you already conceded your argument. BTW in a different response. I think were done here.

YOU
<<that we do not earn our salvation, >> We both agree

You're not being intellectually honest. Tell me. what is the difference between a person who tries to earn his/her way to salvation, and a person who is not?

YOU
<<By grace alone>> we owe our entire existence, because God created us, and loves us (his grace) and when the world fell, He also made the plan for our salvation.

ME
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace....
- Romans 11:6

YOU
Well, DUH. It is what I have been trying to tell you all along, isn't it? Faith and "works". "WORKS", not the Mosaic Law kind of works, but "Works" like we're talking about here."

ME
Therefore, you're earning your salvation, right????????????

YOU
Finally, some connection.

ME
No you're twisting this to make it look favorable to you. You're ignoring the point that I've made by those three questions. If you have to obey the commandments in order not to sin, so you can stay saved, then you ARE earning your salvation when the Bible clearly says that the law does not save (Romans 3;19-20

YOU
You don't think it was by anything other than the Grace of God that Jesus was conceived of Mary, the Virgin Mother of God, (remember Luke 1:28 And the angel being come in,
said unto her: Hail, full of GRACE, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.)
and that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and the means of our Salvation?
Ultimately EVERYTHING goes back to God's grace.

ME
What does all this have to do with the methodology of salvation whether it is by faith alone or by faith and works? You've just committed a Red Herring, You know that your salvific model contradicts the very definition of grace so you try, and make a grand point about Jesus' coming, the Virgin Mary, etc to avoid dealing with it directly.

Salvation means being saved from damnation. God saves us from damnation without... our doing anything. However you're saying one thing, that it is impossible to earn salvation but saying another, that the commandments must be kept to avoid... damnation.

Isn't that the same thing as saving self?

So is it truly by Grace He saved us, or our we saving ourselves?

Seriously? We've BEEN through this already. It all breaks down to Salvation by grace through Faith + works. Not Sol Fide. Ephesians 2:8-9, James 2:21-26 do not stand in opposition to each other no matter how hard you try to contort the meaning and quote mine the new Testament Letters.

I will return later.

Ephesians 2:[8] For BY GRACE you are saved THROUGH faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God;

YOU
"Seriously? We've BEEN through this already. It all breaks down to Salvation by grace through Faith + works. Not Sol Fide. Ephesians 2:8-9"

ME
The only way you can answer Ephesians 2:8-9 is to ignore vs 9 in order to say yes, it's by grace we've been saved,

YOU
"...James 2:21-26 do not stand in opposition to each other no matter how hard you try to contort the meaning and quote mine the new Testament Letters.

ME"
And how did I answer James 2:14-26???

<<<And how did I answer James 2:14-26???>>> Tell me how you interpret it, because it seems pretty self explanatory to me. If you take Ephesians 2:8 AND 9 together you CANNOT ignore the importance of works in the process of salvation when you also read James 2. But you like to break it up into little bits and treat it all like its unrelated. I will never follow your logic. SOL FIDE "faith alone?" No. it was never in the Bible. James 2:[20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Where is there room for Sol Fide? (I can already read your next response: Ephesians 2:9. No.)

YOU
<<<And how did I answer James 2:14-26???>>> Tell me how you interpret it, because it seems pretty self explanatory to me

ME
It didn't surprise me that you did not read it. Here is how I answered it:

"Now I will answer James 2;14-26. That passage is no support for Grace in cooperation with works because it is not about that at all. In fact, read 15-16 which is the context of 14. Then in vs 18 Someone (not God) may well say to you "You have faith and I have works, show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith by my works". James 2:14-26 is about proving... that you are saved before other people by your works."

YOU
If you take Ephesians 2:8 AND 9 together you CANNOT ignore the importance of works in the process of salvation when you also read James 2....:"

ME
Now you finally given account of vs 9 by ignoring it, saying, that works cannot be ignored. Then, you go straight to James 2,

Now look again, my explanation of James 2, and see if you can still make that same conclusion using vs 20

YOU
I will never follow your logic. SOL FIDE "faith alone?" No. it was never in the Bible

ME
Yes, to you it's not in the bible if you ignore Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3:19-20, 4:4-5, 11:6, Galatians 2:20-21, 5:4.

So you'll never follow my logic of faith alone? Pretending that the verses I've just listed did not exist or it actually states something else? That is called Idolatry, HomerD.

You'd rather die and go to hell than to believe in something that you do not like, or that doesn't make sense to you (Isaiah 55:8-9). But if what I believe is true, then your problem is not with me but with God,

1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
- Romans 10:1-4

However you want to explain it you still need the works with the faith, even if the faith comes first.
Then you think it nullifies Ephesians 2:8-9. It doesn't, because it CAN'T. you can't use one part of the Bible to contradict another if you are interpreting it correctly. Don't you know that atheists use this tactic all the time?? Why do you think so many atheists are former Bible Christians? I can think of one late, Sam Kinison, a rather famous if foul-mouthed stand-up comedian, who USED to be a Bible preacher. You would never know it if you had heard any of his acts.

YOU
However you want to explain it you still need the works with the faith, even if the faith comes first.

ME
All of your verses, except Philippians 2;12, I have answered. And to answer that one, look at the next verse. Taken together, does that sound like that we have to work for our salvation with fear and trembling?

Vs 12 says "work out"; you cannot work out something that you do not have. Then it says in vs 13 for it is God who is in you to WILL... and to DO... for His good pleasure. Taken as a whole, it appears to me that Paul is telling us to take our salvation, seriously.

YOU
Then you think it nullifies Ephesians 2:8-9. It doesn't, because it CAN'T. you can't use one part of the Bible to contradict another if you are interpreting it correctly.

ME
You cannot answer Ephesians 2:8-9 with an appeal to context. You can throw an infinite amount of verses but nothing will change its wording. And right now, every one of your verses are answered by me.

YOU
Don't you know that atheists use this tactic all the time?? Why do you think so many atheists are former Bible Christians?

ME
Of course I do, but you're using verses that you do not fully understand yourself. You were simply given them, or you've taken them from an apologetics website and have not studied those verses yourself until you've met a Protestant like me.

I have been where you are now. I was not just one who sat in the pews waiting until the mass concluded but loved my religion. It took some debates & evaluation until I finally realized I was wrong.

I don't blame you for wanting to stay, Roman Catholicism is a beautiful religion, but it is wrong in virtually everything and this is one of the most serious error that lead to hell.

Good that you cited and quoted Ephesians 2:8. Now please read the next verse, HomerD:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Originally we were talking about the Grace of God alone being the source of salvation as opposed to your assertion of Sol Fide. Stick to the topic. "faith and "works" is a different topic.

You have made that point but then in the same paragraph you immediately tried to disprove Sola Fide as you explained that faith alone regulates good works and unimportant and sin as nothing to God. At that, you cited James 2:14-26 which taken as a whole, tells me otherwise.

If you wanted to talk about your notion of grace alone, we can do that; although your topic is off topic essentially with my meme above.

If you are living by faith it's going to show in your "works" faith alone isn't "enough" if demons do believe and tremble (Letter of James)

YOU
If you are living by faith it's going to show in your "works" faith alone isn't "enough" if demons do believe and tremble (Letter of James)

ME
Since we're on James, I will answer this other part of.

There's a difference between mental accent and saving faith. Mental accent is an intellectual acknowledgement that the notion is true, but does not necessarily save that person.

James is writing to Jewish believers (James 1:1) and so in ch. 2 he first had to deal with their partiality of other people, (2:1-13), then, the fact that they think they're saved, which is why we read "what does it profit if a man SAYS he has faith, does that faith save him"?

I'm sure you've read by now, vs' 15-16 with 17 as a conclusion? Then 18?

Vs 19 hearkens directly to Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear O Israel, the LORD God the LORD is one". Monotheism is at the very heart of their theology. the Jews here thinks that because they believe that doctrine they are saved. No, they are not.

Hebrews 11:[1] Now faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not.

<<mental accent and saving faith>> And the only way one differs from the other is by putting that 'faith' in action. Correct?

Otherwise there is no difference, because every action is preceded by thought (or should be). James also says [22]" But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves." Doers. DOERS.

YOU
And the only way one differs from the other is by putting that 'faith' in action. Correct?

ME
No, faith happens at the heart. Romans 10:17 says, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Faith happens internally so in a sense it is not a work. When you see a car driving towards you then you react instantly for self preservation. So it is with faith,

In hearing the Gospel, the person is moved to faith and faith then leads to repentance. So in that it is not a work.

YOU
Otherwise there is no difference, because every action is preceded by thought (or should be). James also says [22]" But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves." Doers. DOERS.

ME
In this case, returning to 10:17, hearing leads to faith. You can say that after hearing they made the decision to believe. That decision is a work in itself.

But the making of decision superfluous in actuality as when one hears of the gospel, and the one hearing it has an open mind and heart (remember the Parable of the Sower) then s/he will naturally come to faith. It is hearing something that finally changes the mind. it is in that moment s/he is saved.

If true then still it is not by faith ALONE that saves. Also, you say "faith happens internally" Well how? Isn't that where the Grace of God comes in? Didn't Jesus also say, "no one can come to me unless the Father draws him."? Faith "happens" but it doesn't happen to everyone; you can't "will" that kind of a faith. This is another mystery of salvation, why God draws some people and not others.

YOU
If true then still it is not by faith ALONE that saves. Also, you say "faith happens internally" Well how?

ME
Did you not read the car analogy? And yes it is by faith alone because if faith happens internally... which saves him/her... then works were not a factor in that person's salvation.

YOU
Well how? Isn't that where the Grace of God comes in? Didn't Jesus also say, "no one can come to me unless the Father draws him."?

ME
Funny you should say that. I debated whether I should introduce Calvinism into the argument. It is we would most believe in Sola Gratia than all others.

As Calvinists we believe that it is by God's grace that He elects those to salvation (Ephesians 2:8a), and the Elect is then saved through faith (Ephesians 2:8b). It is not of them (meaning their faith didn't come from them (Ephesians 2:8c) but it is given by God (Ephesians 2:8d).

That is the real reason why Faith Alone is not a work, because faith is given by God Himself. Man CANNOT believe... and WILL NOT believe... because His is carnal in mind (Romans 8:7).

So what does God do? He draws them in John 6:44. No one can come to the Father unless He draws them to Himself. He calls them and His calling is effectual. His grace is irresistible.

John 6:37-39 says

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

You've just opened a can of worms as they say. I debated whether I should reveal it because it's rather complicated, but now you've done it.

You might have you reasons for believing sol fide. I have reasons for believing faith and works. Bigger heads than mine and yours have pondered and wrote entire books about it. Were I had the time to read more. As far as Calvinism: But I am not about to consider Pre-Destination. You will excuse me please, it has been edifying, but life intrudes and I REALLY do have other things to do. . .

With all due respect to those bigger heads, the Bible is so easy to understand that even a child can read and learn it. What makes it hard is when we make it seem harder than it is in actuality. And so it is with salvation. If God wants people saved then He wouldn't have made it that only scholars and theologians would understand.

We have a bit more to discuss. If I am right it behooves you to return to this topic and more.

It is my understanding that you were Catholic at one time. Apparently you had no faith in the Catholic magisterium to interpret scripture as its was intended, by the Church. I don't know if you see the problem here; of people reading Scripture and understanding it any which way they think is correct. This is why there are at least 10 major Protestant Denominations and how many 100s or even 1000s of other 'flavors' of Protestantism that exist within each non-Catholic Christian communities. And this is to say nothing of the Non-Trinitarian sects such as the Jehovah Witnesses and the Mormon Church, each of which have their own version of Scriptures, and claim to follow a form of Sol Scriptura if not Sol Fide. If interpreting scripture were that clear-cut, this would not be the state of Christianity today, and being familiar with the complexity behind Paul's Letters I chuckle at your statement that a child can read and learn (understand) it fully.

2Pe 3:15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

2Pe 3:16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

2Pe 3:17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

2Pe 3:18But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Were it so there would not be mountains of Scripture commentaries Catholic and Protestant alike. If, and you apparently do, reject Catholicism as possessing the fullness of faith, who is to say that the Lutherans aren't correct as opposed to your beliefs, or the Methodists, the Baptists, or the Oneness Pentecostals, or even the Westborough Baptist Church. Each of them with their flocks have members like the Catholic Church with various intensities of their convictions. Each of them sincere in their convictions and their faith. But you (and I can't answer) if faith (and you say Faith Alone) will save them if they believe wrongly. What say you?

SOLA SCRIPTURA 1; Part 2

YOU
2Pe 3:15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
2Pe 3:18But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

ME
If you're saying that vs 16-17 refers to those in the body of Christ and not the church, then you are wrong. Peter is referring to the unbelieving which the Bible says:

22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
...
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
- 1 Corinthians 1:22-23 & 2:14

YOU
Were it so there would not be mountains of Scripture commentaries Catholic and Protestant alike.

ME
Which probably revolves around ecclesiology in how to run a church, & if not, the deeper meaning of respective doctrines, and aspects of Christian living. The Bible is simple enough to understand how to be saved and live a Christian’s life, but further study yields greater and greater illumination of those truths.

Welcome to theology and biblical scholarship where God’s word is so rich we barely scratch the surface of. And if one is truly saved then one will have an unending thirst to know God more and so delve into scripture for that purpose.

You’re making this out to be so complicated that it seems no one can read a single chapter, let alone a paragraph without a doctorate’s degree holder or a prophet by you.

SOLA SCRIPTURA 1; Part 3

YOU
If, and you apparently do, reject Catholicism as possessing the fullness of faith, who is to say that the Lutherans aren't correct as opposed to your beliefs, or the Methodists, the Baptists, or the Oneness Pentecostals, or even the Westborough Baptist Church.

ME
I do not reject the Catholic church or any other on the grounds of fulness but the fundamental doctrines they teach. In Acts 17 the Bereans are more noble than the Thessalonians for rather than believe the Apostles at their word, they studied the scriptures daily if their claims stand.

Note well, they did not believe the Apostles… despite most likely hearing of great & unrivaled miracles by them… until they concluded their daily investigations of their claims through the scriptures, and they were commended for it.

YOU
.... But you (and I can't answer) if faith (and you say Faith Alone) will save them if they believe wrongly. What say you?2

ME
If by that you mean knowing whether they are truly saved or not then I mostly agree. But if I am right, and the person before me obstinenty rejects Sola Fide then s/he is most likely not saved (Galatians 5:4).

Neither of us knows whether s/he will be saved in the future, or in my case, Elect before the foundation of the world (Romans 8:29-30), but this we should know: there is only one Gospel that saves (Galatians 1:6-9), and one of the most important part of that Gospel is on salvific methodology.

We Protestants believe that one is saved by placing faith/trusting Christ alone for salvation; and to add to it with works not only slaps in in the face (Galatians 3:10-13), but reject the free gift of salvation, paid for by His blood

NOW...

Since this is topic is of another, make your own meme or I can give you a link so we can continue our conversation.

SOLA SCRIPTURA 1; Part 1

YOU
It is my understanding that you were Catholic at one time. Apparently you had no faith in the Catholic magisterium to interpret scripture as its was intended, by the Church.

ME
I have yet to even tell you how I've left and already you've concluded that I had never had the proper faith in the interpretive power and authority of the church. You're being quite presumptuous, HomerD. What should have clued you otherwise was when I told you that I loved the Catholic religion. It is not proof in itself, but such a love for can drive one to believe in the the Pope as he is a Vicar of Christ so nothing he utters is false.

YOU
I don't know if you see the problem here; of people reading Scripture and understanding it any which way they think is correct. This is why there are at least 10 major Protestant Denominations and how many 100s or even 1000s of other 'flavors' of Protestantism that exist within each non-Catholic Christian communities.

ME
Have you ever bothered to look at those churches, at least with the Protestant churches? Are they really that divided to you to where even a difference in casual vs. formal attire means the difference between saved or unsaved?

With Protestants and Evangelicals there are what is called Fundamental/Essential Theology, Peripheral Theology, and Tertiary Theology, and all Evangelicals are united in the Fundamentals of faith with regard to the Trinity, the Apostles/Nicene Creeds, and the Four Solas (w/ the 5th only for Calvinists).

And, It is the fundamentals that saves, and because of that, we all consider each other as brothers and sisters. The division, lies mostly in ecclesiology and methodology; and of the two, it is mostly on the church. Not only that, new movements often occur whenever a church lost its zeal or become corrupt.

YOU
“... If interpreting scripture were that clear-cut, this would not be the state of Christianity today, and being familiar with the complexity behind Paul's Letters I chuckle at your statement that a child can read and learn (understand) it fully.”

ME
I did not say fully, but really HomerD: How hard is it to understand John 3:16-17, the Beatitudes in Matthew 5, or even Adamic Sin in Romans 5:12-16?

I should say, this the full reason why Faith is internal, because for the Elect it happens automictically.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
- John 1:12-13