I'm not saying in any way that Caucasians are "more fit" than indigenous folks. I'm saying that one of these ideas has be false.

Are you ship shap?

No. Why do you ask?

Trying to find the original ship shap, I haven't seen him in a very long time

He deleted some time ago. I don't think he's coming back.

Oh.

Still, if you want to keep searching, there's nothing stopping you. I miss him too.

Even if he was a leftist, he seemed like a nice person....

proof that no one has to hate anyone :)

He was. As long as you didn't bring up politics, he was a great guy.

R.I.P. Ship-Shap

R.I.P.

I would look in more liberal political streams, he was pretty far left

the Indians were murdering each other. it wouldn't have been long.

Well, to be fair, Europeans at the time of the discovery of the new world were murdering each other all the time as well.

not the same way

Fair. But I don't think the Indians would have wiped themselves out.

they weren't exactly on the road to prosperity, killing every other tribe they came across..

There were actually many truces and unions between tribes. They generally only fought when attacked or threatened. Sometimes a tribe would initiate the fights, yes, but that wasn't like a daily occurrence

before or after we came?

Yes. It happened before (in fact, there was a huge hunting union among the plains tribes that assembled once a year to hunt buffalo. They even had a signing system figured out for those that spoke different languages) we came along, albeit it happened a lot more after we started encroaching on their land.

Oh that. yes it existed lol but allies in purpose aren't always allies in a mundane setting

Fair, although I would think that they wouldn't really attack each other frequently either, unless one of them was desperate or they had a previous beef with each other

or needed some slaves to sell. which they did.

I don't know anything about that, so I won't argue.

the christians came to America to escape persecution. We brought christianity to the Indians and tried to keep peace for a while, but they were blood thirsty. God brought the settlers here, America is the promised land

If I recall correctly, the first people to step on the mainland of the Americas were the conquistadors, who had little regard for the Indians. Yes, after Europe set a firm foot in America, many Indians were brought to Christ, but as the American nation expanded further and further West, the Indians felt threatened by the removal and desecration of their land, and retaliated.

I make no comment about whether or not America is a promised land.

yes the spaniards. I did not make mention anywhere about the first to get here. we were the ones who stayed, and by the grace of God made a country out of it

Fair. I was simply trying to point out that we didn't exactly do a very good job of establishing good relations with the natives. Yes, we became a world power by God's blessing, but, as happens to all empires, it will fall eventually.

and this nation will fall only because this nation has widely removed God from their daily lives. but it will be as God planned, and all will be humbled and come to him again. it's a cycle

well not ALL. but the general population. or maybe it's the last time.

Once again, agreed. Have you ever read "The Fate of Empires" by any chance?

I haven't, but the truth has a funny way of popping up in fiction

I think it might be that truth is an unavoidable natural law. It exists in everything. Take Lewis (love the guy) for example: He was still atheist when he wrote the chronicles of Narnia, however the parallels between that story and the christian principals are unmistakeable. the truth is in every element of our makeup.

It's actually not fiction, but an essay by a historian who noticed a pattern in how empires waxed and waned. It's startling how much of that pattern has shown up in US history so far.

ahh, I see. it sounds a lot like a series that has been recommended me time and time again

Would that series, by any chance, be Bright Empires, by Stephen Lawhead?

welcome to the club lol

not exactly sure... I have a bad memory lol

Don't worry. I have bad memory too XD

oh I did forget something! the spaniards left their biggest impression in what we know as Mexico. even more so in South America. in the states they had some influence in Florida with the seminoles, but that is not as lasting obviously as Mexico and so cali

That's true, although my point was more that we had rather stormy relations with the Natives initially, so they had reason to be hostile.

yes... we made peace constantly though, and they turned around and massacred. it wasn't always their fault, but they did take it as an extreme honor to take a man's life.

Some of us, yes, but not all. In fact, different European nations made alliances with different tribes. That could make up for some of the back-stabbing you mentioned. Also, sometimes they would attack over the deeds of one white man. Was it right? No, but they weren't doing it for no reason. They also sometimes felt the white men weren't keeping their side of the covenant. Again, war is a complicated thing, and one can't just blame one specific event or side for causing it.

precisely. history in that department is not as black and white at people make it out to be. have you ever read "pilgrim journal"?

I'm afraid I haven't.

probably then lol. I am interested because a great deal of my ancestors are natives. I even used to go to powwows a lot when I was little. I've never been to the Dakotas, how was it?

That's neat! I'm entirely European in my ancestry lol.

It was cold. But I was glad to be in the black hills, since all I had seen for days beforehand were grasslands and plains. It was high time I saw some trees.

It's a journal made by the pilgrims from the time of arrival to some other time I don't recall. It covers various dealings and encounters with the Indians

That would certainly be a good read for me. I've grow rather interested in Native American history ever since my family and I visited the Crazy Horse monument in South Dakota.

thats cool too! what part of Europe? I have a bit of everything, mostly southern European and Scandinavian

mm trees. those are great.

Mostly German, with some French and Lithuanian on my dad's side, and mostly English with some Irish on my mom's side.

I must be part elf or something like that. Or maybe it's just because I grew up around trees, and so I just like them a lot.

here imgflip.com/memechat?invite=QWsiS4yLm6Jg7if_JU2F8BqwfR72a3EY