Flowers Tulips

I agree with Total Depravity, Limited Atonement, and Unconditional Election, but I do not believe that God selects people. Salvation is offered to anyone who seeks God first. Yes, God knows what is going to happen and who will select this salvation, but it is not limited to a certain amount of people. It is offered freely to everyone. As Romans 10:9 and Matthew 7:21 say, those who confess the name of Jesus and give their all to Him receive the salvation that is offered to everyone. I do agree with the Perseverance of the Saints, but only to a certain extent. Like I mentioned, I do not believe in a certain Elect. However I do believe that once you are saved it is not revocable, but if you later openly reject Jesus then you are no longer saved, not because Jesus hasn't saved us all, but because it is something that you have decided. Mark 16:16 states very clearly that those who believe are saved and those who do not are condemned. God knows the condition of your heart and if you truly believe or not, so if you do not truly believe then you are not saved.

Hi Pirate-melon; thank you for taking your time in reading my pos!

In reading your respones I suspect you're difinitely in line with Captain_Scar over the issue

But just to be sure, Total Depravity teaches that human beings are so sinful that it is not in us to believe. We cannot because we will not We are bent towards living our lives the way we want to. Total Derpavity is foundational to the entire Calvinist Soteriology, (Soteriology meaning, study of Salvation). And because we're Totally Depraved, it is necessary for God to Elect/Choose who to save (Limited Atonement), and leave others to their own devices.. Do you agree with that teaching?

On the other hand, what Captain_Scar teaches with respect to one's sinfulness is point one of Arminianism which means that while we are sinners in nature, we have the power to override our desire not to believe but believe..

As for Perseverance of the Saints, you're definitely with Captain Scar on that one. However, you may believe in something that goes beyond his beliefs on.

Scar and I had an earlier discussion on what it means to lose one's salvation, I've asked him the following questions:

Can you lose your salvation, and if so, what are the grounds for that? Is it:

A) A mere decison to leave
B) One has broken too many of the commandments of God/Not followed God enough
C) One hasn't been Baptised.

Captain Scar believed in "A" as works do not save us at all, but what ends our salvation is not by God's decision but our free will choice to leave

Hi, Uniform Victor! I have to say, I do not agree with that teaching. Yes, humans are fallen and sinful, but God created us with amazing minds to decide. In the garden, He did not make it impossible for Adam and Eve to take the fruit because He gave them a mind capable of that decision. He wants to be friends with us, and friendship is of one's own choice. I also believe "A". I believe that God has given us a choice because He loves us and He is a different God than of other religions. It breaks His heart when someone turns away, but He does not revoke salvation from someone just because, that is why Jesus died for us not to enforce the law but to become it because we cannot follow the Law on our own. I agree that we are totally depraved, but it does not require God to choose who to save, John 3:16 says whoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. That counts for everyone, not just a certain elect.

Hmmm... on the first point, you believe in Total Depravity but also believe that sinners have the power to believe?

What Captain Scar believes is called Partial Depravity; that we're sinners by nature, but we are not so sinful that our condition prevents us from willfully believing.

Total Depravity is against the notion of Free Will with regard to choosing Christ while Partial Depravity allows for it.

I suppose I believe that, but I don't completely like the term partial. We are definitely all sinners and we are all fallen, but I don't think I like the phrase not so sinful that. It's more like God's grace is what enables us to willingly believe, it doesn't have to do with us being able to on our own

I see.... I'll have to think abouit that. You're the first to express that idea. It is matching to Romans 11:11-12 when the Jews rejected Jesus the light went to the Gentiles.

Huh, okay.

I've just posted a revised version of TULIP. I reallized that not only have I inadequetely explained the 1st point but also made a mistake in what Unconditional Election means. The latter has nothing to do with God's impartiality with different types of people but God's choice in electing regardless of merits

Alright, thank you for this!

You're welcome!

Yes, absolutely! I'm doing okay, how are you?

Thank you; I'm feeling better. Thngs were a bit crazy in the past few days. The matter is not completely over, but at least it appears that there's a resolution.

I understand completely, I was in a tough situation last week and there seemed to be no way out. I'll be praying that it ends soon:)

Thank you for doing that; I suspect we're talking about the same thng. I'll do the same.

Oh.

Hi Pirate_melon, if it is OK with you I'll be erasing the above post which hosts our dialogue here so that those visiting will read the updated version of my explanation of Calvinism.

For now, how are you doing?

Erasing....

Yeah, I definitely think I am a bit of a combination of a Calvinist and Arminian. They both believe things which are true, but there are also some things that I'm not sure I believe

You're definitely not alone in that. I was a mix myself before I've embraced Calvinism.

BASIC EXPLANATION OF CALVINISM
Calvinism can be summarized in five basic points under the acronym, TULIP: Total Depravity-Unconditional Election-Limited Atonement-Irresistible Grace-Perseverance of the Saints.

It is important to remember that John Calvin (1509-1564), a French theologian, didn’t come up with these points on his own, as many of his contemporaries, more or less, believed in what he believed. Martin Lutther for example can be considered ”Calvinistic”, but he was never one completely.

The reason why many Reformers were “Calvinistic” is because they subscribed to the view believed by St. Augustine. According to him, man in his sinful state, could not believe on his own and so He must be empowered by God in order to believe.

TOTAL DEPRAVITY: That all men are not only sinners by deed but also in nature; such that they will never believe
Genesis 8:21, Romans 6:16-18, & 8:6-8

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION: That God elects those to be saved before the foundation of the world regardless of their merits or lack thereof; all according to His mercy.
Romans 9:11, Ephesians 1:4-8, & 1 Timothy 1:1-4

LIMITED ATONEMENT: God graciously elects those to save based not on palatability but by mercy
Matthew 26:28, John 6:44, & Romans 9:15-16

IRRESISTIBLE GRACE: A teaching that those who are the Elect are drawn against their sinful inclination not to believe but believe.
John 1:12-13, 6:37, 44, Romans 9:16

PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS: That the Elect is kept by God and will not lose their salvation
John 6:37-39, 10:29-30, & Jude 1:24

SOURCES/USEFUL LINKS:
Ryan Reeves, “Luther and Calvin on Predestination” Ryan Reeves, Jun 13, 2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tirB0ODem24

Matthew J Slick, “The Five Points of Calvinism”. The Calvinist Corner http://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm

“Calvinism vs. Arminianism - which view is correct?” Got Questions Ministries Oct 21, 2019 http://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm

SCRIPTURE SOURCE
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+8%3A21%2C+Romans+6%3A16-18%2C+8%3A6-8%2C+Matthew+26%3A28%2C+John+6%3A44%2C+Acts+13%3A48%2C+John+1%3A12-13%2C+6%3A37%2C+44%2C+Romans+9%3A16%2C+John+6%3A37-39%2C+10%3A29-30%2C+Jude+1%3A24+&version=ESV

Thanks for the explanation. I do find several points troubling though.

Hi Kate; Calvinism is not the most popular of soteriologies nor is it the easiest to understand. As a Calvinist, I will continue to struggle with aspects of Calvinism that seemed to run counter to the notiomn of God's love and what is to me, naturally just.

Good day brother. Could you start a Prayer Stream where people can ask prayers for themselves or others? This just came to mind as I found out a young friend I grew up with has cancer and she is asking for prayers. I wanted to start a stream but I've reached my max of 10 streams. If you make me moderator rather than owner of the World Religions stream I could do it. Please let me know how we can make this happen. Thanks and peace. Hope you're well.

Hi Kate, that's a good idea.

Thanks, are you going to make the stream or can you change my status on the World Religions stream?

I don't see any options to change your status except whether to make you owner or moderator.

Do you want me to make you a moderator? There is also an option to remove you. Do you want to be removed?

Please make me moderator

You're now the moderator. Here's the Prayer stream:

imgflip.com/m/PrayerRequestStream

Thanks. Great work. However I don't think it necessary to mention catholic or evangelical. I would just say all faiths welcome

Certainly.