X, X Everywhere

Politics and sexuality are not the same thing. There are gay conservatives just as there are heterosexual liberals. When the prenatal test for homosexuality comes out, will you support a woman's right to abort her child because it is gay?

I'm aware that they're not the same thing.

The point is the hypocrisy of the people who argue for the lives of fetuses that they don't have any connection to but don't value the lives of the pregnant women concerned or of any of the people whose lifestyle/sexuality/gender expression/religion/relationship status/political beliefs or relationship choices they don't agree with.

"Pro-life!..no wait, not THAT life..or THAT one..

Interesting projection.

'“If you believe abortion is an evil force, you should oppose the force and do what you have to, to stop it.”

Hill’s remorseless soliloquy concluded the life of a man whose extreme anti-abortion leanings were well documented even before he gunned down Dr. John Britton and a companion outside the Ladies Center clinic, in Pensacola, on July 29, 1994. Hill predicted, incorrectly, that violence directed at abortion providers would surge after his death.'

Pro-life protester takes a doctor's life and hoped it would encourage others to do the same.

It's hardly pro-life if not all lives count.

That's ridiculous, you are perfectly aware that that's not my argument.

I didn't at any point suggest that people have abortions as some kind of retribution.

People that argue that all life is precious, like, that's the whole point of their movement, have demonstrated that they think it's acceptable to murder people they don't agree with.

I read it as you arguing that he couldn't possibly be part of a pro-life movement and be capable of committing murder.

Which is fair, but I think it's more complex than that.

He didn't truly act alone.

If someone is part of a group that encourages judgement and loathing toward what other people do with their bodies, a group that organises protests at family planning clinics where they scream abuse in the faces of people seeking medical assistance, some of whom are not even there for an abortion.

It seems a bit convenient when some people go even further and commit murder, to say "that guy? Oh..he's not with us" and whistle innocently.

Did you know that there are summer camps where they indoctrinate children to be angry about it?

'even though their own bad decisions are what led them there'

Before I assume I know what you're referring to, what bad decisions would they be?

'I will gladly heap abuse on murderous ghouls like you and Kylie, who openly advocate for unfettered abortion for anyone who wants it, with your false arguments ("her body, her choice", "seeking medical assistance") because you know exactly what you're doing and why you do it.'

As a related aside, what of the precious lives of the babies whose Mothers listen to the pro-life campaigners and don't have an abortion?

The babies born screaming in pain, as drug addicts to drug addicted Mothers, the babies born to teenage Mothers with no income, the babies born to Mothers who were raped (you don't know the stats, it's widely underreported), the babies born to Mothers with violent partners, the babies born to homeless Mothers, the babies born to violent Mothers.

You'd force a child to be born and experience unnecessary suffering because life is precious?

I get the impression that those precious lives are forgotten about the people who so zealously campaigned for them the moment they are born.

The Mothers left to figure things out in whatever squalor, violence or isolation they are in, open to the judgement of the very people who told them they weren't allowed to avoid it.

Do you really think it isn't just a way to control women?

You said yourself that they got themselves into the situation, anyone would think they'd held up a sperm bank!

'These are human lives we're talking about. So what if they're born into bad situations? People are born into bad situations all day, every day. Should we kill all of them, too?'

They are already in those situations, aborting an unborn fetus is preventing that situation from happening.

'far, far, far too many) men think they can skip out on the consequences.

And that's a problem, too.'

How is it acceptable for men to argue that women must be forced to experience pregnancy and childbirth against their consent whilst often playing no part other than engaging in sex?

(Marriage obviously doesn't guarantee that men will stick around or provide any support even if they do).

I think if it was the bodies and freedom and workload of men we were discussing, the pro-life movement might easily not exist after all.

A woman who's just found out that she's pregnant has a decision to make.

She knows if she's in circumstances that she can bring a child into.

In an extreme example, a woman is pregnant because she has been raped by her abusive husband and knows it will be much harder to escape him if children are involved.

She knows it's the safest, wisest thing to swallow a pill and end the pregnancy.

So many people stay in abusive relationships because there are children involved, who are not only damaged by witnessing it, but go on to repeat the pattern.

Caring for children usually ends up being the work of the women, having children makes it harder to continue education, to work, to be financially independent, to travel, it takes a toll on someone's mental and physical health.

The reason women are so underrepresented in the workforce is because they are left caring for the children.

Many men aren't interested in helping raise the children they create.

Pregnancy can happen regardless of how careful you're being, if women are forced to continue with every pregnancy, it's going to put them at a disadvantage as far as participating equally with men in society.

Many women try to juggle both work and childcare and do valiantly but consequently have to work far harder than their male colleagues and sometimes for less pay.
Facing criticism when they have to prioritise the child before the work.

Is your ideal situation all women being trapped at home raising children whether they wanted them or not?
Likely unable to participate in the workforce or to have financial independence?
Their bodies irreversibly affected by the toll of childbirth and pregnancy, an ongoing struggle to be deemed attractive enough to their husband
Do you think people forced to sacrifice everything they wanted and forced to have children will make good Mothers?

'8 month old fetus'

You must know how unlikely that is, the majority of abortions are in the first few weeks and happen by the woman taking a pill at home.

In the rare circumstance that the fetus is 8 months old, it's because there's some serious health issue.

Yes, I know many women who've had abortions, they don't regret it.
They also don't view it lightly, most women that don't want children will obviously try to avoid getting pregnant in the first place but no contraception is 100% effective.

Before you mention immoral sex and it being the fault of the woman, remember that there must have been a man involved too.

I wasn't even finished when I wrote mine, it turns out there's a character limit.

Haha

Who knew?

What do 'most women' have to do with anything?

I made it clear I was talking about women in really challenging situations, there are countless reasons that unwanted pregnancy can happen.

Forcing a woman to have a baby she doesn't want/can't look after/will be at risk of harm etc is wrong.

There's no reason to unless you want to control women's role in society.

26 years ago. Didn't answer the question.

How does when it happened change the fact that a member of the pro-life movement took a life?

Oh, you meant the question seriously?

'Dr. David Gunn is shot and killed during an anti-abortion protest at the Pensacola Women’s Medical Services clinic. Dr. Gunn performed abortions at several clinics in Florida and Alabama and was getting out of his car in the clinic’s parking lot when Michael Griffin shouted, “Don’t kill any more babies!” and shot the doctor three times in the back. Griffin immediately surrendered to a nearby police officer.'

Pro-life, eh?

27 years ago. Didn't answer the question.

How does when it happened change the fact that a member of the pro-life movement took a life?

Your question was a deeply unrealistic hypothetical.

'Between 1993 and 2015, antiabortionists have attacked clinics and killed at least 11 people, including doctors, a clinic escort, receptionists and an off-duty police officer working as a guard. This is in addition to multiple attempted homicides and dozens of bombings.'

Pro-life?

Did you...did you just accuse me of being pedestrian?

Also, that's just criticism, not a counter argument; try harder.

It's a valid point, if a movement argues that all life is precious then they need to demonstrate that by not killing people they don't like.

Some of the people we're trying to protect with social distancing are pregnant women. Ones who want to complete their pregnancy successfully. This should be an opportunity for both sides to agree on something but. The normally "pro-life" crowd. Just. Don't. Care.

I suspect that there's small print somewhere on their protest signs with a list of the types of lives they don't give a shit about.

I mean, if you read between the lines a little on the argument I had with BurntFingerForge and NorseGreen chiming in, the real game is in there but they don't have the guts to say it - they don't care because, of course, coronavirus being what it is, most healthy pregnancies are unaffected. Pregnancies that were at risk to begin with - because I double checked and it turns out that yes, women with asthma can get pregnant too - are hecka scared, but most pregnancies are healthy so who cares?

Without realising it, they've straight up admitted to what their fine print is: it was never about the babies, it was about the eugenics.

'but those people aren't pro-life, then, are they?'

Technically, but I think it's more complex than that.

If someone is part of a group that encourages judgement and loathing about what other people do with their bodies, a group that organises protests at family planning clinics where they scream abuse in the faces of people seeking medical assistance, some of whom are not even there for an abortion.

It seems a bit convenient when some people go even further and commit murder, to say "that guy? Oh..he's not with us" and whistle innocently.

The pro-life movement fosters the kind of attitude that leads to people thinking it's acceptable to attack and or kill people for behaviour they disagree with.