All our good deeds are as filthy rags...

Excellent Post, Memedave! The scriptures you've given actually touches on the doctrine of Adamic Sin or Original Sin (I suspect you know that already so my apologies if you already do
1).

It also touches on Total Depravity which I will post at a later date under TULIP (Total Depraity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistable Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints).

Not only that, it hearkens to the humanity of Christ as He was tempted as we are but as God, did not respond to it.

Definitely everyone justifies him/herself thinking they're morally adequate. Paul Washer said it best

"Do you know why people don't want you to judge otthers? Because they don't want you to turn around and judge them".

Thanks. Yeah, I’m not too well schooled about the history of evangelism in the church and all it’s formal writings. (You’ve posted quite a bit already that I’ll have to read through). But I used to do outreaches with an evangelism pastor years ago. He really liked the Way of the Master method by Ray Comfort, but he was using the law in his witnessing well before he discovered that. Btw, I love Paul Washer! His preaching will convict you every time!

That's wonderful that you were involved in evangelism; not many could or would devote theri time to that. And your evangelism Pastor is great, he definitely knows the Gospel message! I am also familair with the Way of the Master, and it is one of the best ways to share the Gospel which I've also used a little bit.

And since you love Paul Washer... are you a Calvinist? :)

Lol, I don’t really know. Not too familiar on what exactly separates one from being a Calvinist or Armenian. I know it’s something to do with free will and predestination (election?). I lean more towards free will, but can’t it be both? The Lord will select those to be chosen, but we still have a choice to deny Him? He can’t force us to believe. Just like he didn’t force Adam to eat (or not to eat) the fruit. But of course he knows the outcome already. Like if we’re going to chose him or not. I always tell people, the Lord isn’t going to drag anyone kicking and screaming into heaven. 😆. For me, it’s just one of those tricky subjects, (like the Trinity), that’s hard for us to wrap our minds around, because we are just finite beings with limited knowledge. Another reason we need faith. But always be seeking. I always break it down to a family situation- you don’t always know exactly what what your young child will do while playing in a room, but you basically know what the outcome will be of any situation he creates.

Another thing about Paul Washer, I love his preaching, but I also heard he doesn’t believe in miracle healing. I know he’s been though a lot. My evangelism pastor, (he passed a few years ago) had the gift of healing. Now I realize there are a lot of phony fake healers out there. But this man and I would go out, sometimes just me and him, and I watched him lay hands on people, and they were healed. We didn’t know any of these people, oftenwe would just go out driving, with the Holy Spirit leading us. I’ve seen people healed of back problems, heart problems, brain conditions, body pains, hearing restored, partial sight restored, and even breast cancer once. Now, I don’t know if these were permanent healings, as we never did any long term follow up on any of these people. And I don’t know how much had to do with the power of their mind with positive energy, (mind over matter), which is how an atheist would explain these things. But I know that he would not pray for them, unless they believed that God could heal them. Because their lack of belief would prevent them from being healed. Like the woman with the issue of blood who touched His cloak, Jesus said “by your faith you have been healed.”

So, having said all that , and what I’ve seen and experienced, I believe in healings, but I don’t look down on those who do not. (Just as I don’t discourage people who don’t speak in tongues, but that’s a whole other subject). 😉

Hi Memedave, I apologise for this late response

YOU
Lol, I don’t really know. Not too familiar on what exactly separates one from being a Calvinist or Armenian. I know it’s something to do with free will and predestination (election?). I lean more towards free will, but can’t it be both?

ME
There is a measure of both as while God predestined those to be saved from the beginning (Romans 8:29) but the responsibility of believing still remains with us all. The question now is whether those who are unelected are left to their own devices, or are predestined to damnation. All Calvinists know the natural inability for the carnally minded to believe, but how much? Those who believe in what’s called Single Predestination believe that it is still possible for them to believe, while those who subscribe to Double Predestination say just the opposite.

YOU
The Lord will select those to be chosen, but we still have a choice to deny Him?

ME
If Calvinism is true then we cannot resist it (the “I” in TULIP is Irresistible Grace); that’s where the Arminians differ. In our carnality we cannot in ourselves to come to God so God must draw us in (John 6:44).

YOU
He can’t force us to believe. Just like he didn’t force Adam to eat (or not to eat) the fruit. But of course he knows the outcome already. Like if we’re going to chose him or not. I always tell people, the Lord isn’t going to drag anyone kicking and screaming into heaven.

ME
We have a measure of free will but within the sphere of God’s sovereign plan & will. We have a measure of it to eat the forbidden fruit or not, but at the same time in Proverbs 17:15 even a throw of a dice is predestined by HIm.

YOU
😆. For me, it’s just one of those tricky subjects, (like the Trinity), that’s hard for us to wrap our minds around, because we are just finite beings with limited knowledge.

ME
I completely agree with you; like the Trinity predestination is a thing of mystery that we may never fully understand. Like the Trinity there are passages that clearly evidenced but unlike it… there’s not enough of it that truly makes it irrefutable.

I'm sorry, not 17:15 but Proverbs 16:33.

YOU
Another reason we need faith. But always be seeking. I always break it down to a family situation- you don’t always know exactly what what your young child will do while playing in a room, but you basically know what the outcome will be of any situation he creates.

ME
That is something that Arminians would say. God predestines those He knows will believe. Though I would disagree, it’s a pretty good argument

YOU
Another thing about Paul Washer, I love his preaching, but I also heard he doesn’t believe in miracle healing. I know he’s been though a lot.

ME
I think he believes miracles are still possible but in cautious measure. When asked whether he believed if people can still speak in tongues he said he is open to that possibility but hasn’t seen it yet.

YOU
My evangelism pastor, (he passed a few years ago) had the gift of healing. Now I realize there are a lot of phony fake healers out there.

ME
The problem with current claims of miraculous healings is that they’re almost always low level. What I mean is that you do not see a missing arm growing, one with profound cerebral palsy become normal, & a clinically dead person rises from the dead. You might hear such stories but they’re hard to verify. What healings you do see are ones you can’t see at all. The blind seeing (actually most blind are not totally blind), the Deaf hearing (many are not totally deaf), and one with chronic pain healed. They’re all low level.

When you go to these fake healing revivals, the music and the preaching often rises in order to build in order to cause adrenaline to rise. They’re told beforehand that their healing is conditioned upon their level of faith, Coupled with the sheer and desperate desire to be healed, they induce themselves to feel that they’re... healed. When it’s nothing more than adrenaline.

People are “Slain in the Spirit” because the emotion of the audience have been so built up to where they would be in a psychological frenzy. They will indeed speak in tongues but no different than what you see in Pagan spirituality, So with a wave of the hand, or a jacket, they fall backwards

Biblically however… you do not see Jesus and the Apostles doing that. Jesus simply uttered a word, and Peter healed people as his shadow passes over them.

YOU
Because their lack of belief would prevent them from being healed. Like the woman with the issue of blood who touched His cloak, Jesus said “by your faith you have been healed.”

ME
Please be careful with that. While faith is needed, one needs only a level of faith the size of a mustard seed. People have died because they were told that if they have enough faith, they can be healed of Cancer, or any other life-threatening ailment.

If they were not healed, they’ll likely blame themselves for not having enough faith because what are they told? They have to have faith in order for them to be healed. Perhaps sin was the reason for God’s refusal to heal them. If they’re struggling with certain sins as we all do, they’ll blame themselves. We are our own worst critics

YOU
So, having said all that , and what I’ve seen and experienced, I believe in healings, but I don’t look down on those who do not. (Just as I don’t discourage people who don’t speak in tongues, but that’s a whole other subject). 😉

ME
Thank you for that. I can easily see how one can look down upon the rest seeing that the other’s faith is not to the level of the person believing in healing.

So, I guess o lean more on the Armenian side then. Idk. It’s still a little confusing.

Yeah, my pastor friend didn’t believe in the whole “slain in the spirit” thing. It’s all show. And there can be demons behind that as well. The only reason I have for why all the healings we see are “low level”, or things within the body where we can’t actually see the transformation take place, is that it would be to easy for those who witness it to believe. Like to see someone’s arm grow back, of course anyone would believe. They would only believe because of the miracle, and nothing else. With the healing internal, it leaves more room for faith. Idk, I just feel that the Lord has given me on that.

And thanks for the replies! It’s nice to have another strong Christian on here to converse with. 😃👍

"The only reason I have for why all the healings we see are “low level”, or things within the body where we can’t actually see the transformation take place, is that it would be to easy for those who witness it to believe."

I thought it was the reverse. Isn't it that the more miraculous the healing, or more powerful the sign and wonder the more likely that they'll believe?

You're welcome, Brother; I am equally glad to have a strong brother as you. We have a dearth of that here on Imgflip. :)

That’s actually what I meant. The greater the miracle, the easier to believe. If it’s inside the body where it’s not seen, there leaves more room for doubt, and thus requires greater faith. Which is what I think God would want. “Blessed are those who haven’t seen, yet still believe”...

So there's a greater value in seeing miracles that cannot be easily be observed?

I don’t know about greater value, but takes greater faith. Because it cannot be seen. If everyone witnesses an arm or foot reappear or grow back, it would not take any faith to believe it.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on that point but I'll leave it at that.

I'm a Cessationist (those who do believe in miracles but do not believe that the miraculous signs and wonders seen in the Apostle's time are for today) so I will be tempted to argue in favor of it.

In other matters... you know what stinks? This meme of yours get four Upvotes while none did mine.

I'm taking it lightly, but as time wears on, it will serve as a discouragement to me and it's not because of a lack of Upvotes. We as Evangelicals have lost our love and sense for doctrinal truths.

I've met here a number of Evangelicals who did not want to identify themselves as because they simply want to be considered Christian. Yes, they're Christians as we are because they believed in the right Gospel but they go to Evangelical churches but did not know that.

They're totally ignorant of their own history!

And I wonder if they even know what Protestantism is!

Hi Memedave; it's been a while since we've talked; how are you? :)

BTW, if you know of any Evangelical, feel free to invite him/her to the Evangelicalism stream as well.

The more the merrier!

I will. I’ve been out of it for awhile, so I don’t know many people any more. And the ones I do know aren’t memers. But if I find any, I’ll send em this way!

Excellent; thank you. :)

Hey, UniformVictor, I’m good. Just been trying to curb my screen time lately. The wife and kid have me busy enough anyway when I’m not working. Thanks for asking! How have you been?

I'm well, and well adjusted to the new circumstance we're now in. The most significent part of thaet reason is because I'm an introvert.

But I'm glad you're doing well; and still working despite the same circumstance, and from appearance your family is also well. :)

Well, that's perfectly OK, your family is priority as also your work. In either case, God is good!