1 Corinthians 10:21

I'm not vouching for this guy, but there is truth mixed in there. Deception always has some to make it palatable. I suggest you ask God himself to show you what's true or not true rather than assuming you know.

I don't know if you've read my response but you must judge all teaching by the word of God.

The church have been corrupted most profoundly because of men like Olsteen. As a consequence, some of what we believe ourselves came originally from their corruptions. God will not excuse us from ignoring them. It is not just the fact that we believed them that He will point out, but that we also share amongst our fellows thus spreading the corruption ourselves.

Of course there are positives that they've taught, but it is never enough to justify their other teachings.

HI AnnOn-a-mouse.

You're absolutely right: palatable.

The Devil has been using our carnal desires as a means to entice us to the lies from the very beginning. Genesis 3:1-4 Satan first cast doubt on the word of God, then used Eve's desire for knowledge, but not just. Knowledge to God's moral level... and when she saw that it was also palatable to eat, she did, and gave it to Adam.

Then Adam foolishly consumed without question.

SIMILARITIES

With regard to similarities... yes there are thing in the Bible that seemed similar to what those teachers have demonstrated. You see Jesus commanding things to come to pass and so did the Apostles. However, they were the only ones doing it in scripture, not anyone else. The promises of Jesus in John 14:12 "Greater works you shall do in my name" was told to the Apostles only. Mark 16:17-18 was specifically to the Apostles as they alone for example can drink poison and not harm them [those listed in that passage is specific only to the Apostles (ex. Acts 28:1-8. The other is seeing and being chosen by Jesus Himself - 1 Corinthians 9:1-2)].

It is not to say that only the Apostles have those gifts, because in 1 Corinthians 12 & 14 speaks of believers having different kinds of spiritual gifts but none of them have more than one. Some will indeed have the gift of dreams, prophecy, interpretations of tongues, etc, but not all speak in tongues and not all have more than one. It's simply not evident in scripture. Only the Apostles have multiple gifts like Paul [can heal, speak in tongues, and seen a vision (Acts 20:7-11, 1 Corinthians 14:18... read the whole chapter to see why he said that... & 2 Corinthians 12:1-4)]

Dear friend,

I'm talking about real truth, not carnal desires mixed in. Otherwise it's a straight-up lie, not deception. Lies are much easier to spot than deception. Truth is what makes deception deceptive. Think of Satan trying to tempt Jesus. And realize that while it is right to throw out deception on the whole and say you just don't know, taking the opposite stance isn't doing that but falling for the deception in a different way. Jesus didn't tell Satan "No the angels won't catch me if I fall;" he instead looked for the truth of the matter, which is never directly opposite unless it is a straight up lie (rare).

I'm also not talking about something that came from the teaching of some well-known ministry. I'm talking about what God has taught my fellowship, my family, and myself directly.

I'm glad to see you recognize that there are spiritual gifts, though I can't agree on the 'one gift only' mentality. The Bible doesn't say that, saying only that "...he distributes them to each one, just as he determines." What I have seen is Him giving them where needed, which depends on calling and relationship. This is different than God just piling gifts on one person for the sake of show.

For the record, what I'm talking about isn't even necessarily about spiritual gifting, though that can influence things. I'm talking about the fact that God created us (and every living thing to some extent) to have both physical and spiritual components. Unfortunately, our post-'Enlightenment' world has come to see things in a very physical-only perspective. This is more science than scripture. I know, I studied Biology in college.

Even if you can't accept this concept yet, I encourage you to examine the scriptures and ask God yourself. I think we agree that every prophecy must align with scripture to be true. That doesn't mean that God can't bring up something new, though. Consider how the New Testament teachings fit with the OT, but also added new things.

Here are a few scriptures of note, off the top of my head:

"The tongue has the power of life and death, and those who love it will eat its fruit."
Proverbs 18:21

"If you declare with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' ..."
Romans 10:9-10

Ephesians 6:10-18

And possibly 2 Corinthians 4:16-18.

May you find the truth in accordance with your willingness to really look for it no matter the cost.

AnnOn-e-mouse

I'm not accusing you of carnality or factoring carnality as the reason why you believe what you believe. However, I will say that sometimes we believe tihngs because it either makes sense to us or we do not know any better. I'm guilty of that at times, we all are.

YOU
"I'm talking about what God has taught my fellowship, my family, and myself directly."

ME
Is it through scripture also (that is independantly taken exegetically from the bible and not merely given by the pastors), because the following two verses below are wrongly used, One is taken blatantly out of context and the second one is dramatically twisted.

How do you know that Proverbs 18:21 evidenced the Law of Attraction and not a proverb against reckless speech?

Romans 10:9-10 is not evidence for, either. Normally it is interpreted as steps needed for salvation, but better interpretation is that a believer WILL confess Jesus as Lord. And even if by our confession we are saved it doesn't work like a spell. God saves you when... you confess that Jesus is Lord, not because you confess it.

The Law of Attraction is Occultic in nature and origin; see how that affected your interpretation of those two verses??? Confessing Jesus Christ became like a spell. It is also Satanic because to believe we can command anything to happen regardless of it being done in Jesus' name, when in scripture... that creative power belongs to God alone, is blatantly Satanic.

YOU
"I'm talking about the fact that God created us (and every living thing to some extent) to have both physical and spiritual components."

ME
I agree, but what is that spiritual component? Is it an innate sense of right and wrong or something more?

YOU
"Even if you can't accept this concept yet, I encourage you to examine the scriptures and ask God yourself. I think we agree that every prophecy must align with scripture to be true."

ME
With respect, telling me to continue to search for truth, to see if the thing is true is an answer not any better than what the Mormons have used whenever they're not able to prevail.

They would say, "Pray about it", read James 1:5, and ask you to read the Book of Mormon again; God will show you the answer.

You wouldn't heed Mormons when their teachings are clearly against scripture

I respect that you must follow your conscience, but I know my God and what He has taught me. If you can't receive it, you can't receive it; it isn't my job to convince you. I don't want to get into it, at least not today. The friend I mentioned on Twitter just died, just like I expected she would (God showed me something when I prayed for her months ago). Good for her, bad for us. Probably wasn't a coincidence she came up in conversation today of all days (only time she ever has), though I don't totally understand the how.

Hi AnnOn-e-mouse, I am awfully sorry for your loss. Were the two of you very close?

Thank you. No, but I've been following her story pretty close for several years. We'd had some pretty meaningful, if brief, exchanges. For what God has called me to, I don't find it appropriate to pray for every person and their Auntie who requests it online, but I felt right praying for her. God seemed to both give me just the right words for her, and a vision of presumably her final moments, months ago.

Except for being concerned for her husband, I'm largely over it now, but I had to process that the end finally came.

THE PROBLEM WITH THE WORD OF FAITH THEOLOGY

In the case of Joel Olsteen, and those like him, they've used the our worldly needs to entice us. We all need health, desire wealth, lust for beauty, and dream of fame or popularity and these teachers caters to our desires (1 John 2:22-23). The problem is that not only it doesn't work, but they've taught that your healing, wealth, and fame is dependant on your faith and giving ($$$).

If you're not healed, you didn't have enough faith; and if your illness returns then you must have sinned some time ago. Imagine the guilt that would come as a result of. Worse, some refused medical attention because of that teaching; many died because of it. That's not what the Bible taught. When you're healed, you're healed; but if you've sinned unrepentantly a worse thing will come (John 5:14).

And with regard to giving; that's how pastors like Jimmy Swaggart, Benny Hinn, and Creflo A Dollar, in the Word of Faith movement got, filthy, rich. John Macarthur, Pastor of Grace Community Church in Los Angeles calls it a Ponzi Scheme, and it is (he preaches against the Word of Faith movement along with Justin Peters, Costi Hinn, and John Piper).

Costi Hinn, Benny Hinn's Nephew tells of them staying in 50 thousand dollar hotels in Dubai, owning multiple mansions, and flying in private jets.

I am not personally familiar with any of these teachers, though I have certainly heard of them, usually in a negative light.

Healing is never determined by faith alone, but by what God is doing. Paul wasn't lacking in faith, but God declined his request for healing three times, saying "My grace is sufficient." Otherwise, why do all people physically die (except Elijah and possibly Enoch)?

Actually I have myself meaningfully refuted this doctrine on Twitter when a Christian lady I follow with some notoriety came down with cancer and was being subjected to such judgmental claims of 'your faith just isn't enough.' I don't think I convinced any of them, but she herself was thankful for my comments.

What God has shown me, though, is that our mindset does influence our outcomes and our health, but it isn't a 'name it and claim it' doctrine. It's more about trusting God. For example, I virtually always get sick in the springtime, but this year it would be virtual imprisonment to get so much as a cold. While a specific blessing on my health was spoken, I have been resting in knowing that God's provision for this year includes health to do what is needed, and amazingly I haven't gotten sick even when multiple things that normally get my immune system down were in play.

There is a lot more to it on health than this example shows, but I'm not sure my words or understanding can do it justice. I am much more familiar with how it works on other things. An example would be how in sports they tell you that you have to visualize it first. What they may not understand, though, is that there is a spiritual component to this. For me, commanding something to happen that can happen, but which is difficult to get to, is something I'm much more familiar with. An example would be putting an earring through the piercing hole. This doesn't seem to work as well for my roommate though, probably due to differences in what God has made us each to be.