I love this one! Perfect example to explain the trinity! I also like the sun reference- how the Mass of the sun is the Father, the light that shines from it and comes to earth is the Son, and the heat that remains after the light has left is the Holy Spirit! Three in one! 😃

Hi Brother Dave; thank you. And that's the very first time I've heard of that analogy; quite matching to scripture I think!

Thanks! I thought so too. 😊

May I ask. what denomination are youi? I'm essentially Baptist; how about you? :)

I’m a Protestant, no denomination really. I first got saved in ‘99, and started going to a church that some labeled Pentecostal or “charismatic”. I refer to myself as just Christian or born again Christian.

That's a classic and admirable disposition of a non denominational Christian; I was one myself! :)

Looking at the first century church, they did not have such names like Congregational, Prebyterian, Mennonite, 1st Baptist, Southern Baptist, so on and so forth.

Names like those, in my mind simply indicates how divided we are as a a Church; divided over what I've considered at a time, petty differences. At mid point, I've begun to remember what I've read and understood why denominations have existed.

But while my understanding has enlargened, I still have an independant streak (as we all should of course, but I think this would be more so with non denominationalists) which is why I would only call myself a virtual Baptist.

Because it was the Catholic Church that was founded by Christ and the Apostles in the first century and which continues today :)

Can you tell me how a Baptist differs from the other Protestant denominations? I’ve always wanted to know. (Just a few major points, I know it is a big question). Where I live in Florida, there are a lot of Baptist churches. I never met one whose theology was off, but then I haven’t met too many...

Hi Dave; what defines the Baptists than all others are their belief in Adult Baptism. Before the Baptists it was common for infants to be baptized. The reason for that are two considerations

1. Circumcision, the carry on of
2. Infant mortality.

Circumcision as you know is a standard practice in Judaism, which, it identifies and differentialtes Jews from the Gentiles. Essentially, Baptism is the same way except in application.

Baptism (Gk. Baptizo) means to be dipped or dunked into, but the root word of means, "To be Identified with". This notion has scriptural support.

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
- Romans 6:3-4

When you are Baptised, you visually and symbolically take part in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Not only that, it shows that your sins are washed away by the blood... when you are dipped (or poured).... into the blood of Christ. The water symbolically washed your sins away.

Lastly, in 1 Peter 3:21

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

The context of that passage is 18-21 where it speaks of Noah and company being saved by water, which killed the entire population. Water saved Noah in freeing him from lethal judgment.

Not only that the Passover event when the avenging angel past over the Hebrew homes as their homes were marked by the blood of the lamb.

Thus, Baptism is like circumcision in that it is an outward sign of an inward change.

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
- Titus 3;5-6

With regard to Infant Baptism,. it was carried on by the Roman Catholic church as it adopted some of the Jewish practices. The practice, since the Reformation, was also carried on by some of the Protestant denominations.

INFANT MORTALITY
Now there wasv another reasdon for Infant baptism. Before the age of modern medicine, it was critical for families to have many children, as so many would die before they grew past infancy.

The worry that was prevailant at that time is the eternal security of the baby. "What if the babyl never get to believe?" Thus the importance of Infant Baptism. To Catholics, it saves the baby, but for the Protestants it enables them to hear (if memory served me correctly), or be receptive to the word.

THE BAPTISTS
The Baptists on the otherhand, believe that Infant Baptism does absolutely nothing for them. Obviously, they can't believe, so they could not be saved. At the same time however, would God really send them to hell as they have no control at all over their lives?

Salvation is only given when a sinner, by his/her own free will, repents and believes. This introduces the notion of "Age of Accountability", to where children does not know fully, the difference between right and wrong until they reach a certain age... typically at the age of 12-16.

In many cultural traditions, there was somewaht of an acknowledgement of that idea. Boys do not become men until that age of 12 and so there are celebrations that marks the beginning of the child's manhood such as the Jewish Bar Mitzvah and Roman Togah.

ORIGIN OF
The notion of Adult Baptism did not begin with the Baptist however, but with the Anabaptists but the two differ in certain teachings as Baptists beleive in the doctrine of Eternal Security, and the Anabaptists believe that salvation can be lost.

Baptists, some of them, are also Calvinists while the Anabaptists are Arminianists.

But if was them who believe in the importance of the free will decision of the person, and the Baptists carried on that belief.

Now I must go, but I'll retrun to give oyu a verse thaet supports the notion of .

Hey, I also believe in adult baptism and free will! Maybe I’m actually a Baptist!😉

Maybe so! :) Now you must choose what Baptist are you. :) 31 in all!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptists_in_the_United_States

Not hating at all so forgive me if it sounds like it, Just using simple logic...

By Default if 3 things are indeed 1, Then 1 is all 3, meaning the *Is Not* Lines should be replace with *Is* As they are by default? So If the Father, The Son And the Holy Spirit are all God* Then the Father is the Son The Son Is The Holy Spirit The Holy Spirit is the Father, The Father is The Holy Spirit The Holy Spirit is the Son and so on so forth,

Hi TheDownvoteFairyGodmother; nothing to forgive.

It does seem logical to conclude that the Father, Son, and the Spirit is one person, given that they are God. If God is one after all, shouldn't they all be one persona as well?

Not necessarily. Take a look at it this way:

1 + 1 + 1 from our point of view and understanding is 3. You have 1 whole number each which can only mean 3, if, each numerical are separate entities.

However, what about

1 x 1 x 1? Doesn't that equal 1?

I know you're not arguing for the Unitarian position, but the point I'm making is this: Just because all members of the Trinity are separate persons doesn't mean they're three Gods. And just because God is one, doesn't mean they must all be one person.

Here are two analogies:

Time we know is one notion; but there is past, present, and futture

Now you're a singe human being, but what are you composed of? Body, Soul, and Spirit.

The Bible evidenced the distiction of the Godhead by the roles each person played. You can see that under the title "SCRIPTURQAL EVIDENCE OF THE TRINITY" already posted on this thread.

Athanasian Creed (A.D. 500)
This creed is attributed to Athanasius, the fourth century bishop of Alexandria who was the strongest defender of the doctrines of the Trinity and the divinity of Christ. It defines the doctrines of the Trinity and the nature of Christ in very concise language.

Please note that the term "catholic" with the lower case 'c' is not a reference to the Roman Catholic Church, but is a reference to the universal Christian faith, since that is how the term was originally used.
______________________

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance.

For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal.

Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals, but one Eternal.

As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one Uncreated, and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Spirit Almighty. And yet they are not three almighties, but one Almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. And yet they are not three gods, but one God.

So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord. And yet not three lords, but one Lord.

For as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge each Person by Himself to be both God and Lord, so we are also forbidden by the catholic religion to say that there are three gods or three lords.

The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

And in the Trinity none

Actually he's pretty clear he's part of the Roman Catholic Church. :)

Perhaps, but like the creed itself, the quote gave no indication as to whether he speaks of the universal faith, or the visible institution itself.

It spoke of the early church fathers, but remember, that the Roman Catholic church did not officlally exist until 325 AD. Until then, there were many other churches, and all were still persecuted prior to Constantine's reign as Caesar, which prevented them from rising to dominance.

Not only that, because there were no other churches around (as some are either in hiding, or fled to states outside of the Roman Empire), the notion of Athanasius speaking of the Roman Catholic church being the only true church, was needless.

Lastly, the Catholic church did not aquire the name, "Roman Catholic", until the Great Schism, in 1054 AD. Prior the eastern and western church divide, there was no one Vicar of Christ as he was but one of five ruling Arch Bishops.

After the Great Schism. the western church has now one arch-bishop.

"The Great Schism" by Ryan Reeves, of Gordon Theological Seminary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_s9Rcsg5UI

... After some thought, I believe you are correct with Athanasius' affiliation, but on what is he part of was not the author's point.

The "...catholic faith... " mentioned on the creed itself gave no indication of the visible institution, but only the faith in terms of its universality. Not the institution

The word "Catholic" means universal so it could in fact be referring like you said to the Christian belief that has been since the time of Christ. I think most of what I believe in the creed most any Christian would also believe.

That I agree. To me, the Athanasian Creed is a must for all who wished to understand and define the Trinity well.

ATHANASIAN CREED written and presented by Christian Apologetics Resarch Ministry https://carm.org/athanasian-creed-500-ad

SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT FOR THE TRINITY
One God
- Deuteronomy 6:4
- Isaiah 43:10

And yet...

The Father is God
- Psalm 89:26
- John 20:17

The Son is God
- Isaiah 9:6
- John 1:1-3, 14

The Holy Spirit is God
- Genesis 1;2
- Acts 5:3-5

But they are not one person. but three distinct persons indicated by roles played
+ The Father is the main source and creator
Psalms 89:26
Romans 1:25
+ The Son is the Redeemer, Savio, & King
Isaiah 44:6
John 3:16-17
Philippiansv 2:6-11
+ The Holy Spirit is the counsellor and source of eternal life
Exodus 31:3
John 4:10-14, 16:7-14
Romans 8:11

Direct Old Testament References
- Genesis 1:2, 26, 18:1-3,
- *Isaiah 48:16-17

16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.
- Isaiah 48:16-17

Direct New Testament References
- *Matthew 3:16, 28:19,
- 2 Corinthians 13:14

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
- Matthew 28:19

How would you reply to the Jehovas Witnesses who deny the Trinity saying that the word Trinity is not found in the Bible, they also claim that Jesus is not divine and that the "Spirit" is merely referring to the thoughts and actions of God the Father?

I would start by saying the words rapture and crucifixion are not in the Bible either. Then go to Rev.1:1,&11, ask who the Alpha and Omega is. After you establish from those verses that it is Jehovah, go to Rev.1:19 and ask them, “how can Jehovah die?” You might not get anywhere, as I haven’t with them, but most of the time it’s just planting a seed. I try to get them to really start thinking about the origins of their religion. Like how it was started by a man who “got a revelation from God” and how closely it compares to others like Mormonism and Islam. And why their Bible is different than everyone else’s. I also ask how they believe someone gets saved. (They believe it takes a long time by befriending someone). Then I would go to the thief on the cross, or how people all over the world are getting saved instantly before martyrdom, and even with a Bible different than theirs. I’m sorry, I’m just running on now. But those are points I bring up with them. I think the most important thing is to just pray for them. I hope this helps next time they come knocking. Good luck!

THE TRINITY
To the claim that the Trinity is not in scripture, therefore is unbiblical... well... neither is the word "Bible", yet they themselves used it. To their credit, they used the word Scriptures more often than the other. but it is more accurate to use the word "Bible" (Latin: Biblia) as it means a collection of books.

This is why the word Trinity is used for the same reason. The term is not in the Bible, but it best represents the clear revelation of scripture concerning God Himself.

THE DEITY OF CHRIST.
Scripture evidence for Jesus' divinity is alreadly listed under "SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT FOR THE TRINITY", but they'll excuse the first evidence, saying that Jesus is just "a god" in their New World Translation. And, according to them of course it is the most accurate version.

First of all, look at the interlinear and it doss not ... have the article "a" before God. The Watchtower ADDED TO SCRIPTURE in order to support their Unitarian doctrine. They've also added the word "Other" to Colossians 1:15-16 "... he created all OTHER things"

In Hebrews 1:6 they've changed the word "Worship" to "Obeissance" (BTW, the greek word used for "Obeissance" is also used in Matthew 4:4 where Jesus told Satan that God only is to be... worshipped").

Second, let's assume that they're right... ask them how many gods do they see in 1:1? There is God (1) and then there's Jesus (2). Two gods, correct? Now they have a problem because Isaiah 43:10 says "... and besides me there is no god formed, neither shall there be after me".

THE HOLY SPIRIT
.... is also already listed. But here are other helpful evidence of the personage of the Holy Spirit (the folllowing is from carm.org):

The Holy Spirit not only convicts, and counsels, speaks *(Acts 8:29; 11:12; 13:2) but also is grieved (Ephesians 4:30).

* Trinity Chart by Matt Slick 10/15/2016 https://carm.org/trinity

Hi Kate. I'll get back to you soon.

DISCLAIMER: I did not draw the diagram but only added color for emphasis.

Image Source: https://www.google.com/search?q=free+trinity+diagram&safe=active&rlz=1C1WPZB_enUS733US733&sxsrf=ACYBGNSk4aCWzeLrhyQt8ywJX4bZAwv_GQ:1572245264393&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjOj--Drr7lAhVYqJ4KHS4LCdQQ_AUIEigB&biw=1350&bih=612#imgrc=l7nwTYQSqO5KCM: