Change My Mind

I'm with you there. And I think deep down everyone knows it is. But to justify a mother killing (yes it is because something that once was alive and becomes dead through a violent act is indeed killing. Regardless of what it's labelled) her offspring, we have decided to debate at which point does an unborn human become a person. Some think at conception some think at birth. And so far only the pro-choice people dissagree. So there's that.

The sad fact is some very few unfortunate souls are born with such severe brain problems that they /never/ become a "person", and yet it's considered a crime to kill them as long as they can stay alive without external medical assistance. So the "personhood" argument doesn't really fly.

So those with mental disabilities are not persons? How about physical disabilities? Better to kill them before they have a chance, we don't want to see them actually have a fulfilling life and prove us wrong. Better to be safe and end these inconveniences than modify and adapt our lives a little to accommodate those who aren't born perfect. Let's just go ahead and deem them not fit to live, just assume they will be miserable all their lives rather than practice a little extra compassion and tolerance and try to show love to ensure they aren't miserable all their lives. Makes sense.

You /completely/ misunderstood me. Try reading my post again.

The sad fact is some very few unfortunate souls are born with such severe brain problems that they /never/ become a "person", and yet it's considered a crime to kill them as long as they can stay alive without external medical assistance. So the "personhood" argument doesn't really fly.

So why have unrestricted abortions when in fact it is only few babies who are born with severe mental disabilities? Did you know most abortions are because of misdiagnosed problems and many could be born healthy?

So how severe does a brain problem have to be for someone to not be considered a person? Is it unable to speak but can use hand signals if taught? Is it unable to move but could with training communicate another way and still has the same brain activity as a mobile person?

Would keeping a person alive through assistance be a greater crime than violently ending their life? A person on dialysis would die without medical assistance but go on to live somewhat normal lives.

Please elaborate on your position, if I'm misunderstanding you.

My point is they can't use the "it's not a person" argument about fetuses, when some people are, as I already said, born with such severe brain problems that they could live for 80 years and never actually be a "person".

I'm not talking about people with mental disabilities, I'm talking about functional vegetables, where the brain works just enough to keep the heart beating and the lungs breathing, but will never do any more than that. It's a crime to end those people's lives, and the same legal argument therefore applies to fetuses. (Which is what leftards are basing their tactics on, the /legal/ definition of "person" and trying to get it to apply to unborn babies.)

And just so we're clear, I am NOT advocating for ending any lives, which is what you somehow managed to read into what I was saying.

Whoops, I also misunderstood what you meant, sorry!
And yeah, if these "human vegetables" are human, then fetuses are too.

My mistake I thought you were arguing for abortion. So what you're saying is brain activity shouldn't be a condition for personhood since some people who are alive now would not be considered persons due to their lack of brain activity? I get it now. So how do you define personhood? Sorry for jumping.

No problem, and I don't really have a personal definition, I'm just calling them out on /their/ definition. It's not all nice and neat and tied up in a bow as they like to think.

All humans are humans, until they become monsters

What's weird is that I see lots of successful people who are actually, in some form, disabled.
Remember Nick Vujicic? Yeah, the guy who has almost no limbs and and yet has become an inspiration to all, everyone knows him. Wait, what did you say? Our baby might not have a finger? LET'S GO ABORT HIM
And it's weird how disabled people can have even more will to live than perfect people like us, who some decide that suicide is a good idea, thinking they're "not perfect enough", and yet there's hundreds of disabled and they want to live with their actual imperfectness. It's all a matter of the mind.
Heck, all humans are imperfect, some just can't accept that fact and want ABSOLUTE PERFECTION. But it's impossible, it's futile, you can't make yourself flawless.

Well said! And if we kill off those with down syndrome (the highest population to be aborted) how will future generations know how to interact and *gasp* learn to appreciate and love those who are different? You're right that many who society deemed unworthy of life turned out to be instrumental individuals, Helen Keller for example. Also how are we to learn how identify, diagnose, study, treat and possibly cure certain diseases if we kill off everyone who's sick, Lou Gehrig is an example.

Sometimes we try to get rid of all imperfections, without realizing that they can teach us something. Oh, and if we kill all imperfections, the only method would be to bomb the Earth.

Imagine a disaster, and it affects everybody, let's say... radiation
All births are affected, all babies will come out with some sort of imperfection
Without thinking, people start aborting these babies and try to do it again, to make a "healthy" baby
But they can't
After time passes, humanity has been reduced to only a fraction of what it was before
Most modern societies were wiped out, because of their lack of offspring
What's left are the children deemed "imperfect"
They interact with each other, fall in love, make a family
And a new "normal" is established

Ooh boom

But it's taking away the life of something that could have been beautiful, or at least rob a chance of a soul to experience the wonder of life

Anyone who will not tolerate the imperfect before they're born surely does not tolerate anyone less than perfect after they're born. Makes me sad to think this is the world my children are growing up in.

I'm disappointed in how this world decided to grow. You should've thought that humans would learn something by now, but we didn't. we didn't learn the fact that violence isn't an answer. We didn't learn the fact that sometimes the only way to win is to step down. We didn't even learn that all humans, developed or not, deserve to live.

How is taking a life not murder?

But you're taking away the life of a FUTURE person