Why isn't the definition of "insanity" (doing the same thing over & over, expecting different results) applied to Progressives?

So, the job field of the future is going to be repairing the automations.

Things to take into consideration: that only would work in the fast food industry, and does. Do you think fast food is going to replace full service restaurants? They haven't, yet, and there will always be people that patronize those places. Nature, and society, abhors a vacuum.

One place I know that has those kiosks is Sheetz has stations. They've used the system for 20 years or more. They still have people making the food and delivering it to the customer. Ever wonder why you don't see gas pumps that accept cash? Companies like Circle K, 7-11, and so forth, WANT you to come in and buy more. Robotics that sophisticated and affordable will still require human interaction to at least supervise the machinery, if, for no other reason, to make sure vandalism and theft are kept to a minimum.

Yepper I know, and coding those bastid machines is a biznitch also. So is keeping them clean, but then working around them is a death trap. I've worked around them before and I've sworn they've stopped and looked at me before. I've seen factories where they've replaced hundreds of people, but some of those jobs are also dangerous so it's really... a tough discussion.

Since Swiggy1957 is telling stories from back in the day...1982, straight outta high school and the trailer park, I joined the United States Marine Corps.

Learned a valuable skill (electronics technician) and finished my Bachelors.

Today, I make almost $100,000 a year.

The American dream...don't count on someone else to give it to you. Go out and earn it. It's there, you just have to find it.

Minimum wage jobs are NOT meant for someone to work full time and/or support a family of five on.

Who do you think pays the minimum wage employees...the evil corporations? No, it's you and me. We are the customers of the evil corporations and, if you have any kind of stocks or IRAs, then you OWN evil corporations. If wages go up the evil corporations will a) increase automation as pointed out in other comments b) raise prices and/or c) not earn as much.

I recommend that we increase the pay and benefits for our active duty, reserve, and veterans before we increase benefits to minimum wage workers.

You forget, not everyone can join the military. Me, it was bum knees during peacetime.

But you talk about people making a career out of minimum wage jobs. Ever think some people don't mind that is the first step towards their future. Take my sis in law. She started out at a local McDonald's in the 90s and she's still with them. Started out as the night janitor, now manages one of the stores. Actually, she's managed several over the years. She's happy with it.

Minimum wage means minimum effort. One reason why turn over is so high in the industry. Learned that years ago when I was helping to redesign a meat packing plant's business plan. One of the first things we noticed was that we spent a lot on training new hires. A facility that, when I started, had 100 employees the first two years I was there, but sent out 300 to 400 W2s every January. I transfered into a 5 man crew, but we had to replace 1 or two people a month: usually because they quit, rarely transfered out. McDonald's found out how paying employees better affected their business. A couple years ago, they tried a pilot program in some of their stores. Gave everybody in the stores something like a dollar an hour raise. What happened? Just on training new employees, they saved thousands per store. The turnover rate was almost nonexistant. People who dreaded going to work suddenly were enthusiastic about it. They stayed long enough to learn to do their jobs well. Efficiency went up exponentially. Customers were happy, and chose McDonalds over other fast food places. Sales, and profits, rose.

Modern businesses failed to take that into consideration: the higher cost of paying low wages.

Right now, you work in a high tech field, but you're only as valuable as your employer thinks you are. If he decides he can get by with a less experienced tech for half the cost, he'll do it. Likewise, if he goes under, good luck starting over. Sure, you'll make more than minimum wage, but not what you have been. When US Steel closed down my brother, a journeyman electrician, was offered a job in another factory for a third less than what he had been making.

I agree with raising compensation for military personnel. It stinks that so many military families and vets have to rely on programs like SNAP, WIC, and food pantries.

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Actually, it's the reverse, minimum effort is given because of minimum wage. You don't attract the best employees with low wages

You don't need the best employees to pick tomatoes or scrub toilets or dig ditches.

Wanna bet?

Go buy some tomatoes. Which ones do you buy? You try to get the freshest, firmest ones. You don't want blemishes, holes, or ick oozing out. I spent enough time in the food service industry to understand that picker is the very first step in quality control. Since it is still labor, the worker also should take care of his equipment, which, in this case, is his back. A visit to the chiropractor is about $50 a shot, and that type of labor should see a chiro at the least, twice a week. The general field hand doesn't think about that, though.

Cleaning toilets? How many people do you know that only clean toilets? That is only a small part of the job. On top of that, especially in the bathrooms, you deal with some real pigs. Used toilet paper on the floor because some people never learned that you flush it down the stool, graffitti on the walls doesn't come off easily, as well as other, dried, human excretions. And the ladies restroom is even worse.

Digging ditches? Do you have any idea how much skill it takes to run a backhoe? Ditch digging was automated years ago. It took too long to have them excavated manually. Manual labor is too labor intense. Not cost effective. Call any contractor.

You keep proving my point, thanks!

To your second paragraph, yes, that's where my mom started in the school system back home, cleaning toilets in the junior high school. ENTRY level job. She was a good employee and quickly moved up and out of that to several other better paying positions.

As I said at the start of this conversation, if you don't like what you're being paid, make yourself more valuable to your employer or another employer. We're all just wage slaves, selling ourselves to the highest bidder.

Your mom only cleaned the toilets? Nothing else? She dealt with biohazardous material. Maybe back then it was just considered yucky. That was then, this is now.

I've had a lot of jobs before I got into technology and writing. Yes, ive even cleaned toilets for a living. I had to do a good job, too, because back then, the USDA inspected EVERYTHING. Yes, even the toilets. Yes, it was the lowest paying job in the plant, bit without it, the plant would have shut down. No, I didn't stay in that position forever. But it barely kept the bills paid. So don't look down your node at such jobs. Yes, I made myself more valuable. The problem is, employers don't consider how valuable you are until you've moved on.

Why stay at a job that you're not valued at or treated fairly? No amount of government regulation will enforce that.

Please don't assume things about people, I don't look down my nose at any one. Like you, my time in the Marine Corps involved doing things that you couldn't imagine or appreciate.

Why, indeed. Let's look at how the civilian world was before you joined the USMC. At the time you graduated the unemployment rate was 9.6%. And then it got worse. By the end of the year, it was over 10%. Jobs were not available. Doubly so as the steel mills that had employed generations of Mahoning Valley families were drying up. I ended up relocating to Indiana, where I was lucky to get a Janitorial job. I also made enough of an impression that I worked days on a team that was redesigning the company and nights cleaning the place. But I was lucky to have that. When unemployment hit 10%, I was able to find a job, much less a job that paid higher than minimum wage, to be sure, and a meat packer, back then, had some great benefits. Unfortunately, the bum knees came into play. I had to leave. Good thing I did, too, because the process we set up was so good, the company got Romneyed. While I was learning to walk again, I found out that my disability could get me a free ride to college. I jumped on it. Since my wife wouldn't work outside the home because she never developed a work ethic, I still had to put a roof over our heads and food on the table. I worked on the shipping dock 60 hours a week. I had an understanding boss, so the fact I was slow but steady put me in good stead. No goofing off. When I started college, we worked around that. That's why I only worked 60 hours a week while going to school full time. It wasn't always easy, but I made it through., got my degree, and improved our lot in life. My fave job since graduation was doing tech support. Unfortunately, that company, IMI, also got Romneyed. I'd still be with them, otherwise. My biggest problem, though, since I got downsized, was that I fell in a niche where I was overqualified to do some jobs and under qualified to do others. But, I still had to keep food on the table and a roof over our heads. Something I learned as a boy: take responsibility for everything you do.

As for not imagining what you went through in the USMC, I should mention that one of my mentors growing up also served. He was like a brother to me. He went in during Korea, and before he was 19, he ended up sitting out the war. No, he didn't get discharged, he spent most of his time in a Korean POW camp. He rarely mentioned it, and he wouldn't go into detail. One thing he did say was he often wished he was back in basic (boot camo was his term) where all he had to deal with was his DI.

A good example of this: shelter. In 1976, I rented a two room house for $25 a week, utilities included. The same house, today, rents for $125/week PLUS utilities. (I looked into it last year when I needed a place)

That's an increase of 500% (actually, more, since the renter has to now pay utilities)

That's just one basic item. Minimum wage has gone up a little over 300% since 1976. Back then, it was $2.30/hr.

In 1969, Mom rented a 5 bedroom house with detached garage and other out buildings for $25/month.

Not much else has kept pace. Oh, electronics are about the same, but who can afford them.

The minimum wage was initially set up to provide wages enough for the basic necessities of life.

Minimum wage employers, for decades, have turned all minimum wage jobs into part time positions, not to circumvent government regulations, but to get around their own corporate policies.

false false false false false false. :/ omfg dude. slavery and under the table illegal immigration is how people get around corporate policies and labor and ... omg dude Lol?... this minimum wage aka livable wage non-debate is such a dead topic. while the people protest are on the latest apple iphones with 3 kids hanging off them and no supporting counterpart, don't give me this crap livable wage, rofl.

I see you aren't aware of the Papa John's business plan. It was revealed back in 2012. Corporate policy allowed full benefits, IIRC, for employees working 32 hours a week or more. To prevent that, only hire part time help, 28 hours a week. This was before Obamacare. He'd been using this business plan in company owned stores for decades. So why eben bother? To cover the staff at Papa John's HQ. To keep the store managers. But ignore the people that were the actual face of the company. Look into it.

Slave labor? I know it's out there: sweat shops, sex industry, locally owned businesses in retail like restaurants. Kind if hard to catch them at it. When they do, they come down hard, at least around here. Local prosecutor has his eye on being an AG. Illegals? One reason why I believe the current fines for hiring are too leinient. Max fine. IIRC is like $5k for the third violation.

Corporate policy does not condone those practices. Franchisees may get away with it, but for the most part, any sting done on those are a black eye for the parent company. They don't want the bad press.

Let me ask you this: if you own a business that deals with the public daily, do you really want to risk having your representative being an unmotivated, minimum wage earner that can't make ends meet? You've seen it: the McDonald's workers that can't get your order right, the cashier that ends up having to call a supervisor because they don't know their job.

I see you are another genius incapable of continuity in your discussions. Your last comment started with, "The minimum wage was initially set up to provide..." Operative words INITIALLY SET UP. So that's what I responded to. Now you're off to the next thing having ignored the entire point that you started, rofl.

These are YOUR POINTS that YOU STARTED and you can't even stay on topic. Lose that reply button, I'm done.

The only reason I said that was because employers forgot about that aspect.