Creepy Condescending Wonka

...so, wait, are we agreeing that the energy people are putting into defending now meaningless traditions is ridiculous?

Yes

Oh. ...ok!

Meaningless to who? If christians enjoy the tradition, what does it matter?

Well, clearly meaningless to Starbucks, for one.

Ok.. good point. I'm not clear on the memes msg. Is it against Christians or tradition?

Ok, I'll admit that I didn't put THAT much thought into my meme.

Nonetheless, every year during the Easter and Christmas festivals, I have the privilege of witnessing a truly special exchange of arguments between serious Christians and my many pagan friends. (I am not personally the least bit interested in exploring any kind of religion, nor do I engage in outright atheism - but my friends are more than welcome to follow their hearts.)

Long story short, Christians feel that pagans are somehow "stealing" their holidays by celebrating their own festivals using the same kind of imagery we're discussing - the chocolate rabbits, the trees, etc - but when anybody tries to reclaim the historical context of where these symbols came from, the response is always that there is somehow a "war" on Christian culture.

Again, I've never been interested in determining a "right" or "wrong" religion - but the defensiveness with which Christians hold on to the traditions that were only adopted into their religion in order to make it more palatable to pagan converts to begin with, is a very clear logical misstep to me.

And because u were respectful, and I also see hour point, I upvoted all your stuff. We are entitled to our opinions.

How kind! I'll reciprocate when I have a moment.

I respect your beliefs.. unbeliefs. But it's fair for Christians to feel this way, and I'll try to explain short form. When I was a kid. . There was prayer in school, it was "OK" to day Merry Christmas, & the 10 commandments were common in court houses across the country. It's was never an issue to use "God" in the pledge of allegiance and wearing a crucifix at work was never challenged either. Congressmen and presidents swore into office on a bible as did witnesses in every court. These practices have been eroding over time.. chipped away by challengers that have brought many of these issues to the highest courts.. all in just my lifetime. When I went in the Army.. we had no choice but to attend a Christian or Jewish service. Period. Drill sergeant "you will go". We also prayed when i was in the army.. and never did any1 not participate. . To include atheist. They respected the belief and bowed their heads and there was no criticizing by anyone. That has all changed.. so regardless of your personal beliefs.. you must understand why Christians feel their beliefs are threatened. You sound like a reasonable fellow.. not a hater, so I'm sure you can see this from a Christians perspective. . Whether u agree with Starbucks or not.

I hear you, and I am familiar with the argument you're making - just as you could probably predict with some accuracy how my response would go, so I don't think there's much point replicating the discussion here.

I'll just say that maybe there's a good reason why the courts chipped away at all those things you remember. If there's ever a day when Christians legitimately find themselves with fewer rights than other religious groups, I'll happily cross sides and argue that the pendulum swung too far - but as things stand, I'm of the firm opinion that we are far from that day.

That's a whole new discussion! Well.. your meme generated some interest.. so it's a topic of concern! Keep going! ;)

Every major religion has a tradition that they like to adhere to. Hindu, Islam, Buddhism, etc... so why wouldn't Christians want tradition as well?

Exxellent! You could post this! ;)

I think the SBUX thing is stupid. I merely object to the claim that the tree is intrinsically pagan.

I mean, yes and no. In abstract, Christmas is a festival of light in the heart of winter symbolizing hope in darkness - which is something that can parse into literally every religion one way or another.

But if we can agree that designing a coffee cup without snowflakes and trees is a complete non-issue, then it's no great stretch to say that these symbols are not so tied in to the teachings of Jesus that we couldn't do without them.

An observation here.. does Starbucks celebrates Halloween with symbols on their cups.. ?

I'm sure I wouldn't know, I don't drink their coffee. I wouldn't have thought so - printing that many coffee cups for a one day holiday would surely be of little promotional benefit.

Lmao.. i hate their coffee too! Over priced and taste like shit!

Small coffee stores are where the good shit is.