More in the comments (for me to elaborate, I'm not trying to start trouble, just very curious)

Sure! I’d be more than happy to answer the two questions you have. We usually never get good-faithed questions like these from Zionists, so I’m more than happy to help.

The question as to why Palestinians claim sovereignty to the region can be answered very simply. First of all, who was there before the First Aliyah, when European Jews began settling on the land (speaking of which, if Israelis are supposedly indigenous to the land, then why did so many of them need to immigrate from Europe in the first place)? Second of all, which group was expelled during the 1948 Nakba? And third of all, what is the “right of return” and how does it apply to Palestinians? While Palestine then wasn’t its own state, and it was under subjugation, you cannot deny that the settlements then were Palestinian, and that Palestinians have every right to return to it.

Think about it this way: In Africa, before European colonizers had arrived, there were people already living there. Even without a state as we know it today, we knew that there were settlements. Are you going to make the argument that, because there didn’t exist independent states as we know it today in Africa before colonization, that the region doesn’t belong to Africans? Of course not.

According to the UN, citing international law, “Palestinian people and all peoples under foreign and colonial domination to self-determination, national independence, territorial integrity, national unity and sovereignty without foreign interference”

Source: https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-178286/

As for your second question, about why people blame Israel despite Hamas having started the recent conflict in Oct 7, I’d first like to mention that what Israel is doing is not purely out of self-defense. In fact, there have been numerous instances in which Israeli officials (including prominent ones like Netanyahu, mind you) have directly incited genocide against Palestinians.

imgflip.com/i/9pr4dx

In fact, there’s an entire database of over 500 instances of this kind of shit. Now imagine to yourself: If this is what they openly say in public, what do they plan behind closed doors?

https://law4palestine.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/Database-of-Israeli-Incitement-to-Genocide-LEGISLATORS.pdf

I don’t even think I need to mention how bombing hospitals, shooting at families, using white phosphorous in civilian areas, bombing refugee camps, assassinating journalists, and more are not acts of self-defense.

But fine, you’re not talking about what Israel’s intention with the war is. The question you’re asking is about whether Hamas is instigating all of this, whether Hamas began this so-called war. To answer this question, I’m going to have to briefly go through a lot of history. For a more in-depth explanation, you can check out the thread below. I suggest you read up on the section “A Settler-Colonial Project from Inception”.

imgflip.com/i/7pusef?nerp=1687185860#com26267021

First of all, something that people who call Hamas a terrorist group fail to bring up is that the IDF itself is made up of three former Zionist terrorist groups: The Haganah, Stern, and Lehi, all three of which merged to create the IDF. During the Nakba, they had committed numerous massacres against Palestinian villages, including the Deir Yassin Massacre, Abu Shusha Massacre, Lydda Massacre, Al Dawayima Massacre, Safsaf Massacre, Hula Massacre, and Lydda and Ramle Massacres, just to name a few. This was done to depopulate Palestinian land for their own gain.

To illustrate just how brutal these atrocities were, here is a graphic testimony from a survivor of the Deir Yassin Massacre: https://youtu.be/iqbVJFvymto

In fact, many of the victims of the Nakba still hold the keys and deeds to their home to this day, showing that it is still in living memory of the Palestinian people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_key

I mention all of these atrocities to illustrate why Palestinians might still remain indignant toward Israel, considering that it won’t grant them the earlier mentioned right of return enshrined in international law.

Instead, Israel has kept Palestinians under occupation in what can only be described as ghettos. In Gaza, they are kept under what is, by all means, a military siege (http://arabpsynet.com/Archives/OP/OpJ20Thabet&AbuTawahina&ElSarraj&Panos.pdf) while Palestinians in the West Bank are left to suffer under a brutal apartheid system (https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/). Even for Palestinians living in Israel, proper, there exists numerous discriminatory laws against them (https://www.adalah.org/en/law/index) and live considerably worse lives than Israelis (https://www.adalah.org/uploads/oldfiles/upfiles/2011/Adalah_The_Inequality_Report_March_2011.pdf).

All of this has, understandably, caused Palestinians to resent Israel. To summarize a lot of what is happening, Palestinians in Gaza are living under a siege, Palestinians in the West Bank are living under an apartheid system, and Palestinians living in Israel are living in an ethnocracy whose purpose is maintaining a Jewish-dominant population and discriminates against them as a consequence.

In fact, there are still war crimes being committed against them (even before Oct 7). In fact, before October 7, in the same year (2023), it was said to be the deadliest year for children in the West Bank since Israel was killing them (with the perpetrators being granted impunity).

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/08/28/west-bank-spike-israeli-killings-palestinian-children

Palestinians have tried to peacefully protest, protest for their right to return, and their right to live a dignified life as someone their ethnicity. A famous example of this was in the 2018-2019 Haza border protests, otherwise known as the March of Return. They tried protesting for their rights *peacefully*, they didn’t jump straight to terrorism. And how did that turn out? Well…

https://peoplesdispatch.org/2021/12/07/killings-during-great-march-of-return-protests-in-gaza-whitewashed-by-israel-report-reveals/

Now that Israel had effectively banned nonviolent civil disobedience, Palestinians have no choice but to turn to violence. It is similar to how in apartheid South Africa, Nelson Mandela had tried to peacefully fight against oppression, before ending up having to resort to similar actions (and being called a terrorist in the process). It does not help that Israeli officials have helped directly facilitate Hamas, making it the only real chance Palestinians have at a resistance movement.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

But anyway, to quickly recap everything I had written, 1. Palestinians claim sovereignty to the land because they were the ones that had dwelt on it for so long. Even as they were under occupation from under regimes, it was their settlements that were there. Because of this, they are entitled to the right of return to their land after they were expelled in the Nakba. And 2. The reason as to why people blame Israel for the so-called war currently happening, despite Hamas attacking it in Oct 7, is due to decades of its own aggression against Palestinians, leading them to retaliate.

If you have any other questions, feel free to let me know. If you’d like to know more, then again, I highly recommend that you read through this first:

imgflip.com/i/7pusef?nerp=1687185860#com26267021

This question is gonna sound very kumbaya-esque, but if Jews and Palestinians (a great section of Palestinians being Muslim) both have religious texts that TEACH Love (Leviticus 19:18 says "Love thy neighbor as yourself, and I'm pretty sure Palestine is in Israel's backdoor, and Quran 4:36 (Surah An-Nisa) says "Worship Allah and associate nothing with Him, and to parents do good, and to relatives, orphans, the needy, the near neighbor, the neighbor farther away, the companion at your side, the traveler, and those whom your right hands possess. Indeed, Allah does not like those who are self-deluding and boastful." which once again, Israel neighbors Palestine). So, this brings back my point. IF BOTH JUDAISM AND ISLAM TEACH LOVE, WHY DO THE TWO SIDES HARBOR SO MUCH HATE?

I'm saying this from a Christian perspective, as my religion teaches us to love our neighbors and our enemies, and pray for those who persecute us.

Also, this doesn’t have anything to do with Israel or Palestine. Because, as Definitely_not_with_the_hamas had proved earlier, this “conflict” has nothing to do with religion. Instead, it has to do with an occupying force and a native people resisting said occupying force.

If you have any other questions though, feel free to ask us.

The question here is « If both Judaism and Islam teach love, why do the two sides harbor so much hate? » and this question is argumented by the different holy texts saying to care for your neighbour. Now there are 4 things I would like to mention (correction is valued if my response is incomplete):
1- You need to contextualise the texts. Maybe the treatment is different on your neighbour if his religion is different from yours. Maybe if there’s a wall separating each other, one cannot simply care (as in love) for the other. That’s why context is necessary (and I won’t get into it as I don’t deem it needful for now).
2- Whilst the holy texts do say this, they do also contain texts on how to combat your enemy (which the Bible has as well). One cannot simply stand there while injustice is done in the hopes of the « mischiveous » to be guided and forgiven.
3- And also you did admit that the question did sound « kumbayaesque », which is true and I thank you for your honesty. As you probably can tell, a conflict that has endured for so many decades (which has begun even before Israel’s creation) is more or less likely to have a fortune goal. We, and I hope the « Pro-Israel Coalition » as well, do hope that this madness will soon stop.
4- And fourth, not everyone really follows the sacred books. Suicide-bombing is forbidden in Islam, as is bombing hospitals in Judaism (if they consider themselves Jews). There’s proper religious ways to fight your enemy.

Feel free to make other questions.

“I’m saying this from a Christian perspective, as my religion teaches us to love our neighbors and our enemies, and pray for those who persecute us.”

9q456h.jpg (click to show)

Contrary to what many Christians appear to believe, the Bible is actually rife with passages that are in no uncertain terms violent, bloodthirsty, hateful, barbaric, and everything else you claim both the Torah and Quran to be.

A few famous examples of this include: Deuteronomy 7:1-2, Psalm 137:9, Leviticus 20:13, Matthew 10:34-36, and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.

In fact, there are even passages within the Bible that contradict themselves. Like how Micah 7:18 states that God does not remain wrathful forever, while in Jer 17:4 it states that he does. As it turns out, the three Abrahamic religions have more in common than you’d think, and Christianity isn’t the “special” one out of them.

So, how do Christians manage to reconcile being forgiving and merciful with passages like these? And what do they do when passages contradict each other?

Simple. The truth is that even the most zealous religious people don’t follow their holy book to a T, especially considering that with it’s contradictions, they simply *can’t*. Instead, they follow parts of their holy book based on the context within a given society. For example, a Christian around a thousand years ago might follow the advice of Leviticus 20:13 and kill homosexuals, while a Christian today might be more tolerant by following the advice of Romans 15:7.

The same can also be said about Muslims and Jews. Sure, in their holy book, it does say that they are each others’ enemy. However, nowadays, (most) of them prefer to live in harmony. And just because there are a few passages that promote hate, doesn’t mean that all of them will follow it. Because once again, the truth is that religious people skirt their own holy book more often than you’d think. If they didn’t, then we’d have a pretty big problem, considering what some of these passages say.

Not saying that *some* Muslims and *some* Jews don’t hate each other. But hey, every group is going to have their rotten apples, especially with religions so massive.

So if you look at history, you can see Palestine was never independent. The region (I'm gonna be neutral and call it Canaan, what it was referred to prior to the Israelite conquest in Joshua) has gone through several owners. Israel, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, and slightly more recently, Byzantium, Rome, and Britain, before gaining independence in 1948. Canaan had never been owned by Palestinians (Britain called the region Palestine, but it wasn't a independent Palestinian state), so why do Palestinians feel a claim to the land? Now that we're on this topic, I have a second question. Why do people feel like Israel is at fault for the war? The war was waged not because Israel wanted to suppress the Palestinian peoples, as if you're PEACEFULLY expressing support for Palestine prior to the conflict, you're fine, but rather against Hamas, a terrorist organization that unfortunately escalated to war between the nations of Israel and Palestine. Am I advocating support for the conflict? No. I feel bad for the Jews and Palestinians harmed or affected by the war, and I dislike some actions committed by both sides. I pray the two sides can settle their differences peacefully, and end this war. But those are my two questions: why do people claim Palestinian sovereignty to the region and why do people blame Israel for the conflict?