Very appropriate meme lol. ⬆️

thanks

You gonna fire them verses, or do I have to hear about the pointy tulips again...??

Lol, it’s more like a barrage of scripture to prove tulip

Fine, forget the scripture for now. What about this though?

Strange, I notice that the word TULIP is an English word. As far as I know, John Calvin was fluent in French, German, and knew Latin well. I'm pretty sure he didn't know English, I could be wrong though... Also, in Geneva at the time of the Reformation, English was not a commonly used language. Tell me, why on God's green earth, would the reformers would use an *English* acronym as a mnemonic for their core doctrine?

The Dutch word for tulip is TULP.
The Swedish word for tulip is TULPAN.
The German word for tulip is TULPE.
The French word for tulip is TULIPE.

I'm pretty sure the reformers didn't teach TULIP...

If you want to debate Calvinism, I'd be willing to defend Calvinism, as I do believe it's sound biblical doctrine; what saith yee?

I object to the term "Calvinism" in general... I certainly wouldn't use it to describe myself, not because the theology is either right or wrong, regardless of what John Calvin taught, it is a lousy term that brings forth nothing but confusion and argumentation. Besides, whatever he (Calvin) learned as doctrine, you can be certain that he didn't invent it. He got it from either Martin Luther, and/or Augustine who (probably) got it from Paul.

It was Augustine who invented what is now known today as the 5th point of Calvinism which is "PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS":

Augustine states, "We, then, call men elected, and Christ's disciple's, and God's children, because they are to be so called whom, being

regenerated, we see to live piously; but they are then truly what they are called IF they shall abide in that on account of which they are

so called." In "City of God" - "On Rebuke and Grace" - 22.

Well that’s a fair point. We don’t get to choose names for these terms tho. To me, it’s just biblical, so it’s odd to call it by someone’s name. But it does condense the doctrine into one term, which is convenient.

Well I suppose it really depends on what exactly it is that one means by the term "Calvinism"...

Often times, I encounter folks who use the term "Calvinism" when what they really mean is "Predestination". Some simply mean "Reformed", and others may mean something completely different.

The 5 points of TULIP certainly don't sum up the teachings of John Calvin. I believe the real historical origin of TULIP comes from (if I remember correctly... :P), the 17th century at the Synod of Dort. I believe it was a response to the 5 points of Arminianism. John Calvin certainly didn't coin the term, if one realizes that he was actually a Frenchman. LoL. Add to that, the French word for tulip is TULIPE and the Dutch word for tulip is TULP. Conclusion, "Calvinism" is just a lousy term, I find anyways.

Also, as a memory device, the TULIP acronym has no historical value outside of the 20th century.

Just some things to ponder. If I'm wrong about anything, please correct me.

In Christ Jesus,

Salutations.

I don’t spot any falsehoods in what you say. TULIP is just a really efficient way of summarizing in part what Calvin emphasized. But if we believe it, it’s not because of Calvin but because of scripture.

And also, it’s not the acronym that should be defended, it’s the contents that should. I know calvin himself didn’t use that acronym, but that’s besides the point; it’s whether what he said is true.

Very pleasant and edifying conversation.

In Christ (alone)

No, what I'm saying is: John Calvin wasn't a "Calvinist".

In regards to true Biblical election, God elected those that are already saved for SERVICE/MINISTRY. God "elected" Moses to lead His people, God "elected" Abraham, God "elected" King David, God "elected" King Solomon after David, God "elected" Paul to be the apostle to the Gentiles, God "elected" Simon Peter to be the apostle to the Jews, etc, etc. God did not "elect" people for salvation/damnation in eternity past which Calvinism falsely teaches.

"Irresistible grace" is refuted with Acts 7:51. The Pharisees and the teachers of the law resisted Jesus in Matthew 12, Mark 3, and the unbelieving Jews resisted Jesus in John 10:33, and John 12:37 despite His miracles/healings in their very presence. Jonah resisted God. The Pharisees accused Jesus of being "demon possessed" and performing exorcisms by the power of Satan. The unbelieving Jews in John10:33 accused Jesus of being only a "mere man" despite His miracles which verified that He was indeed God in human flesh.

"Perseverance of the saints" which is Augustine's original concept is also refuted with Scripture. King Solomon did not "persevere" at the end of his life, but became a serial polygamist and demon worshiper - 1 Kings 11. Does that mean that Solomon was "never saved to begin with?" NO.

Christians who don't persevere and who even die in that state are still eternally saved.

John 10:28-29 - 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Romans 8:38-39 - 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

2 Timothy 2:13 - 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Saved Christians are not kept eternally secure because of their own faithfulness which will always be susceptible to faltering and failure, but they are kept secure because of an UNFAILING SAVIOR.

The Bible teaches that God "predestinated" people who have willingly believed on Christ and His finished work on the cross and are saved to be transformed into immortal physical bodies of FLESH/BONE at the Rapture when Jesus returns which is a future aspect - 1 Cor 15:51-52, 1 Thess 4:16-17 These will be eternal physical bodies just like Jesus resurrected physical body described in Luke 24:39, 1 John 3:2. Christ's resurrected physical body is the prototype of what all saved Christians will be transformed into at the Rapture.

The Biblical passages on predestination like Ephesians 1:4-5, 11, and Romans 8:29-30 all need to be read in light of 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. and 1 John 3:2. What Augustine and Calvin did was take Ephesians 1:4-5, 1:11, and Romans 8:29-30 in ISOLATION and eisegeted those texts and read their "theology" into the text teaching that God "picked and choosed" whom He saves in eternity past and whom He damns in eternity past and that there is nothing man can do about it. Is this not identical to the Islamic belief of FATALISM? Is it not identical to Stoicism's belief in determinism? Are these not all the same thing, but under different names?

It was Augustine who taught his own interpretation of "PREDESTINATION/UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION" in his book, "City of God". Augustine states,"That owing to one man all pass into condemnation who are born of Adam unless they are born again in Christ, even as He has appointed them to be regenerated, before they die in the body, whom He predestinated to everlasting life, as the most merciful bestower of grace; whilst to those whom He has predestinated to eternal death, He is also the most righteous awarder of punishment." - "The City of God" On the Soul and its Origin - 4.16

Again, it was Augustine who invented "IRRESISTIBLE GRACE" in his book, "The City of God" - "On the predestination of the saints" -7, 8, 16.

Augustine believed that the will of God became the cause of all things - In his book, "City of God" - under "Enchiridion" - 95, 96, 100, 101.

Augustine believed "that no man is saved unless God wills it." In his book, "City of God" - under Enchiridion - 103.

It was Augustine who invented what is now known today as the 5th point of Calvinism which is "PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS":

Augustine states, "We, then, call men elected, and Christ's disciple's, and God's children, because they are to be so called whom, being regenerated, we see to live piously; but they are then truly what they are called IF they shall abide in that on account of which they are so called." In "City of God" - "On Rebuke and Grace" - 22.

Augustine states, "It is, indeed, to be wondered at, and greatly to be wondered at, that to some of His own children--whom He has regenerated in Christ--to whom He has given FAITH, hope, love, God does not give PERSEVERANCE also." - In his book, "City of God" - "On Rebuke and Grace" - 18.

Augustine states, "But they who fall and perish have never been in the number of the predestinated." - In his book, "City of God" - "On Rebuke and Grace" - 36.

Augustine believed that salvation can be lost and he taught that only those who are regenerated by God and PERSEVERE, or in those that have lost their salvation that only after they "persevere" that the grace of regeneration is restored, are finally saved. - In his book, "The History of Christian Doctrines" - Louis Berkof - page 136, 1937.

Augustine's version of "predestination", "irresistible grace", and "perseverance of the saints" sounds identical to what MacArthur, Piper, and what Sproul teaches which are 3 of the biggest names in Calvinism/Lordship Salvation today. Are they not?

[image deleted] I've never heard that before. Any evidence that Calvin wasn't what we call a calvinist?
And you say election isn't a saving election, rather a general work of sovereignty? God chooses some people for certain things, absolutely, but God also elects many specifically for salvation 1), and others for condemnation 2).

1)"He predestined us to adoption as sons and daughters through Jesus Christ to
Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of
His grace, with which He favored us in the Beloved." (Eph 1:5-6)
2)"What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power
known, endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction?
And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon objects of mercy,
which He prepared beforehand for glory, " (Romans 9:22-23)

Irresistible grace doesn't mean that people won't reject the gospel, it means that whoever was given to the Son will come.( I'll have to look at those other passages that supposedly "refute" irresistible grace.)
"Everything that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to
Me I certainly will not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do
My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who
sent Me, *that of everything that He has given Me I will lose nothing, but will raise it up on the last day*" (John 6:37-39)

And Perseverance of the saints doesn't mean that you can't sin, it means that you are unable to lose your salvation; and the sign of a true believer is tendency to turn away from sin and to perseverance.
"But the one who endures to the end is the one who will be saved." (Matt. 24:13)
(you also gave the rest of the verses proving Perseverance of the saints)

"By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever follows His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says that he remains in Him ought, himself also, walk just as He walked." (1 John 2:3-6)

You cannot be a Christian yet live just like the world. Not to say that Christians don't sin, but rather, believers will not to live a life of utter disobedience at all times.

It came after Calvin, so yeah, the reformers didn't use that acronym. Here's wikipedia on the five points. It gives a brief back-round to the acronym: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism#Five_points_of_Calvinism

I’m confused. This stream only has about 90 followers. So how on earth did this get twice the amount of views then followers ?
It’s a lame meme, so like..y!?

whats a calvinist

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8S4_5vj-I1A&list=PLpf1zKNN0qIvzQX6qGV135_QkKcHjz9SF&index=5

It’s a nice little summary. Hope that helps

I am m e t h o d i s t

Lol

But seriously what do you have against the other denominations?

Well, it depends on the denomination. Some are better than others, and it also depends on the specific church.

But generally, a lot of denominations have not-so-good theology (that is, not biblical), or they have unbiblical traditions. tbh i don’t know much, but that’s generally the case.
What say you?

As my first grade teacher used to say when I wanted to be at the front of the line; we’re all going to the same place.

The danger is when we think that when we’re not.

Not all who say ‘Lord Lord’ will inherit the kingdom of God. That’s the real danger

As long as they believe in the trinity and that Jesus died for their sins

Fair enough, but quite amazing at how much heresy people can cram. Be on the alert, all i can say

I agree

ah yes forcing religion onto people. f**k off

It’s a joke my friend.

j e e z-